Asked to bid a wedding shoot

[VoidRaven]

Greetings All!

*whew*! What a week. Just got back from 2 weeks in Hawaii this past Sunday. Thanks to everyone who helped me choose to purchase the 17-55mm 2.8....it stayed on my camera 95% of the time and performed flawlessly!!! Probably my new favorite!

But to the point of this post...one of my horse clients sent me an e-mail that her daughter had just gotten engaged. They were beginning to search around for pricing and since they liked my horse/parade work so much would I be interested in putting in a proposal for shooting the wedding.

Now as some may or may not recall I fretted heavily over my sister's wedding when my sister asked me and my wife (and dedicated shooting buddy!) to take the pics for her wedding...and mom guilted me into the "yes". And even once I caved I still fretted to new boundaries until the prints were done and the album delivered.

Seems I'm back in that position again just slightly different. Honestly, I'm not wanting to get into wedding photography. Just not something I want to do. There are lots of extremely talented folks out there who wedding photography is their bag and that's awesome. I will admit I did enjoy it when all was said and done, but I swore up and down I would never do it again.

But I've shot for this client for 2 years now, love working with her and her family as they are wonderfully nice people, and they hit me with the "we really like your work!".

I know I'm treading on dangerous ground here but I have two questions that I am looking for opinions on from all you wonderful folks here at the Cafe:

1) Am I crazy to consider bidding? Should I just stick to my guns or give it another go?

2) If I decide to bid, how the heck do I go about putting together, and pricing, a "wedding package"???? What to include? How much to charge? Forms? What is usually expected???


I've got a few days to get an answer over to her with a "yes I'm interested" or "no, that's really not our bag"....as well as pricing if I say yes.

Am I nuts for thinking about this? Do I really want this stress again? Or should I just leave it to the pros?

Something to seriously think about is that messing up this, aside from ruining the day, would kill our relationship with them and any future others....but then again doing well could open up other possibilities for future work.

Then again, maybe I like stressful photography??? *shiver* Perish the thought!

 

[ShaunK]

Ahhh, just go for it, if it's something you want to do, don't let fear get in the way... I was petrified of my first one... now that it's out of the way, I'm only afraid of my next one :wink: which won't be for a few more months... As to the pricing, here's what I did: for me, just starting out, I researched the prices of the local pros, and then cut that in half... I didn't offer an album, although I did say that my stated price would include the album design, and if they wanted me to order the album for them, it would be $xxx above the original price. They were fine with this, as it allowed them to actually pick out a cheaper album on their own. My price won't remain static, it was a simple way to pick a starting point, and I'll charge more as I improve and feel that I am doing a better job (I'm already charging a couple hundred more for this second up-coming wedding). If they are such a good client, and doing this will keep them coming back, then it is more than worth it, IMO.

 

[Spudsbud]

You should PM "Uncle Frank". and carve his advice into Granite!

 

[VoidRaven]

Shaun...Thanks. I still dunno...was supposed to take time today to research but got busy with other stuff. Probably take some time tomorrow. I guess I often doubt my abilities a little too much but then again I do have a pretty decent idea of my comfort zone. Maybe I will...maybe I won't...we shall see.

Jim...I've seen a lot of Uncle Frank's advice around and I agree that it should often be carved in stone! Maybe I will drop him a PM or do a search for his "wedding advice" posts.

 

[Candidcameraman]

Are you crazy?

About question one: Are you crazy for bidding on it, absolutely and you should do it.

Only crazy people never change their minds, go for it. About question 2... I have not one clue but I know how much a new D3 would cost I am fully aware as well how much that 17-55/2.8 must have cost you.

If you can get a job once in a while which help cover some of your equipement cost ... You'd be crazy not to bid on it as well as crazy to bid on it, Catch 22, my friend, this is a catch 22 situation. :biggrin:

Enjoy the ride

 

[johnmh]

Do you need the $$?

Do you really want to do the job?


And I could understand stressing over a wedding. People have really high expectations. If they're already friends and anything happens you could lose a client over a job you weren't thrilled about doing in the first place. You sounded stressed about the last one - I want to enjoy what I'm doing.

BUT - and this is your call - if you want to extend your business, this is a chance to do so.... Is your main business pretty recession proof? Seems like your clients - people at that level always have $$$. But if you're worried about things contracting any, this could be a good way to expand your business options.

However, if you really don't want to do the job......

Do you know someone who does Wedding Photography as a business - and do you trust them and do you like their work? Would you recommend them?

If so - and if you really don't want to get into that business - you can recommend that person (or even more than one person) to your client - noting that people have their own expertises and while you're flattered to be asked, you feel that this other person's expertise meets their needs better - that this person - ro persons are who YOU would go to.

You get kudos for being honest and recommending another - and perhaps some quid-pro-quo getting recommendations back for your area of expertise.


Just another approach.

 

[BourbonCowboy]

I agree with everyone so far. Sometimes you just have to go for it. If it works, great. Put some cash in your pocket and show the photos as advertising for future jobs. If it doesn't, consider it a learning experience and get some help here, among "the Family," to guide you into your next wedding.

I was so nervous before my first wedding that I had to have a shot of vodka to calm my shaking hands. Turned out fine. The next one was easy.

 

[VoidRaven]

Dude...Point well taken. As of right now I'm probably going to bid it. After all, they can pick someone else so it's not like I am automatically getting the job...I'm being asked to bid so they have another option to consider.

johnmh...You are right, I was quite stressed for my first because it was family. I think I'm even more so here because it is truly my first client wedding as in "screw this up and we can sue you" kind of thing. Then again, I'm a bit panic-y about stuff like this anyway. Do I *need* the work? No. It's a hobby for me, not a side job. Would I like it? Good question. Perhaps yes, perhaps no. But I think the other issue at stake is judging my talent level and *trusting* my talent level to say "yes I can do this" or "no I should pass on this".

And I don't know anyone around here that does wedding photography that I would trust. The guy who did our wedding years ago didn't do that great of a job overall, some of it his fault and some of it equipment failure (still sort of his fault since it was just him and no second shooter). The guy and gal who did my cousin's wedding...well, shots were bland and hazy or blown-out (always a fear with wedding white!).

I'm still trying to determine what my work would be worth at the level I am at. I don't feel comfortable charging what I've found so far...packages starting at $1200-$1500 up to several thousand dollars. I'm probably going to put up a bid between $700 to $900 for full day coverage and either prints/album or CD of images and let them print their own. I know the last part (CD and they print their own) is taboo for many of you but I just don't feel comfortable charging high dollars and I'm not interested in the hassle of reprints.

I will have a new flash unit by June. Going with the SB800. And since our first child is due to be born at the end of June/beginning of July I will get lots of practice with it should they decide to select me for the job.

Thanks again everyone for your honest feedback. I can always count on the Cafe to get unbiased and straight up opinions.

 

[Steved53]

My only advice, apart from "be prepared" is don't undersell yourself.

If they like your work, why should you feel the need to be cheaper than everyone else? If you are going to turn in an inferior product, then you shouldn't be charging and probably shouldn't be doing it.

If you are turning in an average product, then you should charge an average price. You will gain no respect by being too cheap, and it will not offer you any leverage if you deliver an inferior product. They have asked for bids from other photographers. They have not come crying to you saying they cannot afford a professional photographer, and would you consider doing it for free/cheap.

At least if you earn a reasonable amount from the job, it compensates somewhat for the stress and work involved. If you go cheap, the stress and work will be the same. With a wedding, it has to be right. There is no option to come back next week.

I see a huge gulf between a correctly exposed set of wedding shots (the ideal minimum) and an artistically arranged and produced set of wedding shots (the ideal). If you cannot guarantee the minimum, you shouldn't be doing it. If you can guarantee the ideal you should be charging towards the top of the price range. If your work lies somewhere between the two, your price should lie somewhere between the two. IMO.


Regards,

 

[haze2]

I'll give you my take, for what it's worth. I am not a professional photographer and, as such, I don't like to charge for my work. I do, however, strive to make my photographs as professional as possible. Up until this summer I hadn't shot a wedding in over 20 years. Then some acquaintances that were familiar with my photography asked if I would submit a bid to shoot their wedding. They are a young couple and I'm sure they were trying to save some money since their parents weren't springing for the event.

I was really enjoying my new Nikkor 12-24 and 28-70 lenses and thought this would be a great opportunity to put them to use. I told them I would shoot the wedding for free and do the best job I possibly could, but that I am not a professional photographer and they would have to live with the results. They happily agreed and that gave me an excuse to buy a new SB-800! After the wedding I set them up with Mpix and they put their own wedding album together. They were thrilled with the final result and I loved learning more about the SB-800 and shooting the new glass. With the whole event being shot pro bono I never felt pressured to perform. I just did the best I could and had a good time.

I'm not saying this is the best option, but for me it alleviated all the stress. And better yet, it gave me an opportunity to get away from my travel & landscape shooting to do something different and fun.

 

[soofdawg]

Don't do it.

If you haven't shot weddings before, you have no business doing it. Straightforward advice. This is no different then a guy with his private flying license coming onto a 747 plane to fly without any gradual training to work up to that level.

If you want to do weddings, shoot as a second at several weddings and get your feet wet. There's a lot of things that happen at a wedding and you're talking about someone's memories. Tell them you'll help them find a professional photographer and save yourself the trouble. Do you really want that responsibility?

Also, if you haven't shot as a pro before at a wedding, you shouldn't be charging anything either. It undermines those other professional wedding photographers who are trying to do it for a living and have to compete with people who are doing it as a weekend warrior. Again, nothing wrong with doing it once you have established your experience at shooting actual weddings. After all, you have to start somewhere, but not as a primary photog.

Lastly, a horse is pretty different then a bride. The bride can be more fierce after she sees her wedding photos and doesn't like them.

 

[Candidcameraman]

Don't do it.

If you haven't shot weddings before, you have no business doing it. Straightforward advice. This is no different then a guy with his private flying license coming onto a 747 plane to fly without any gradual training to work up to that level.

If you want to do weddings, shoot as a second at several weddings and get your feet wet. There's a lot of things that happen at a wedding and you're talking about someone's memories. Tell them you'll help them find a professional photographer and save yourself the trouble. Do you really want that responsibility?

Also, if you haven't shot as a pro before at a wedding, you shouldn't be charging anything either. It undermines those other professional wedding photographers who are trying to do it for a living and have to compete with people who are doing it as a weekend warrior. Again, nothing wrong with doing it once you have established your experience at shooting actual weddings. After all, you have to start somewhere, but not as a primary photog.

Lastly, a horse is pretty different then a bride. The bride can be more fierce after she sees her wedding photos and doesn't like them.

I disagree but appreciate your point of view, not a bad idea to start ridding shotgun as a wedding photog but the reality is that all pros now a days have to compete with every GWACs (Guys with a camera...) This is the reality of the digital age, all pros have is to demonstrate superior quality photos and/or something new and different. I just looked at your website and ... You do offer something different however this is photography not brain surgery, no one will die if a few bad pictures are captured which the bride will never get to see since only the good ones will be shown. I am sure anyone who goes into such an endeavor as taking on a wedding contract will do more than their best to capture way more good to excellent pictures than bad ones and can surely compete with most pros or semi-pros out there.

People on NC are not your run of the mill weekend warriors, we are passionate about photography and constantly strive to improve our "art" - Taking good pictures in a horse's competition isn't easy, a lot easier to get great images in a wedding... Just my 2 cents.

 

[VoidRaven]

Well, got some update (not sure if I posted it yet or not) but first...

The Dude...Thanks, your comments are always appreciated and nicely balanced.

I had a long response for soofdawg but nah, forget about it. I will just say that I do not 100% agree but I heartily respect your thoughts.

Now then, ALL that being said, my update...I ended up backing down and respectfully bowing out of the bid. This long excerpt from the e-mail should sum it up (for explanation, Jessica is my horse client's daughter and Andrea is my wife):

"Your wedding is a VERY important occasion...a huge day...and the photos from that day help to remember all of it that you may forget during the whirlwind of events that happen. That's also why wedding photography tend to cost more than other types of photography. The photographer has a special eye to capture things 'just so' for amazing memories. They also tend to have been shooting for a long time as well, perfecting their technique, posing, and acquiring the proper equipment for capturing, processing, and printing the memories.

So here's the situation: we are not wedding photographers (of course you knew that already), and by that I mean that wedding photography is an art form and a style of photography all of it's own...and unfortuantely not our style of shooting. Could we do the shoot? Sure, we *could* do it. But after many many MANY long discussions we don't feel confident that we could deliver the type and quality of photos that we feel you deserve for such a special day. We just don't have the proper equipment or experience to really pull of the day the way we feel it should be done.

Andrea and I both love working with you and having been able to develop such a great working relationship, dare I say friendship, over these last couple of years that we have been photographing you and your horses...we would really hate to damage that relationship by saying 'sure, we could do it' and then delivering an inferior product that you (and we) are not happy with.

We are very honored that you would consider allowing us to place an offer on the table to photograph your wedding Jessica but at this time Andrea and I must respectfully decline to present a package."



Shockingly, I think this ended up strengthening our relationship with them because Jessica replied back that she greatly appreciated our honesty in respects to our abilities and that she hoped that *she* had not made us feel pressured to place a bid. She and her mom do love our work with their horses and look forward to doing more with us in that front.

So it looks like sticking to my guns of never shooting another wedding worked out for the best.

And yet what happens three days ago? My wife comes home from work and say "Now I just want you to hear me out on this before you say anything...one of the girls at work is in a hard spot. Her wedding is 4 months away and they still don't have a photographer and people at work told her to ask us since we take pictures..."

I have never said "NO" with such conviction in my life!!! LOL! My wife didn't even get to finish the sentence.

 

[soofdawg]

Dude, I can only talk from experience. Since I'm just a newbie with around 15 posts, I guess I'm not really qualified to really advise anyone. You might be right. I didn't think about the contract part. I have to agree with that if someone has a contract over their head, they will take better pictures just like the pros. I didn't realize how valid that point is. That added pressure could help I suppose in some great pictures as a result because the two are closely related.

By the way, besides weddings, what else do you normally shoot?

 

[soofdawg]

Don, I honestly think your email was excellent. You stated all the right reasons and stated them very well. If you really have aspirations to try shooting a wedding, only you can determine how prepared you really are.

 

[Candidcameraman]

Dude, I can only talk from experience. Since I'm just a newbie with around 15 posts, I guess I'm not really qualified to really advise anyone. You might be right. I didn't think about the contract part. I have to agree with that if someone has a contract over their head, they will take better pictures just like the pros. I didn't realize how valid that point is. That added pressure could help I suppose in some great pictures as a result because the two are closely related.

By the way, besides weddings, what else do you normally shoot?

The point you made is actually a very good one, I always said I would never shoot a wedding... Until I decided to make a go at photography to make a living, my first wedding is OMG... next month... I cover events, concerts and do portraiture for artists, left my regular job recently and am working on this full time as well as consulting in the field I left.

You are qualify to advise anyone as you please, the amount of posts does not matter, how you make point does. The advise of being the second shooter at a wedding is a very good point to start being a wedding photographer.

Sure it is a very stressful job and everyone has to start somewhere, the thing is that I have seen so many bad wedding pictures from pros and amateurs alike and even I question my decision to do cover weddings but I can't logically discard it or any type of photography since any source of revenue is a good one. Point is, the money and experience gained from wedding photography is just too good to not consider it or try it.

There are pro-photographers on this site and others who can and will offer advice to anyone who wants to cover weddings, there are tons of "wedding photography" books, it would be hard for a person on Nikon Cafe to mess up a wedding photography contract unless they didn't do their homework first and/or abused the open bar...

This said, I have seen fights (verbal) at weddings, in front of the photographer... As such, if anyone can avoid covering weddings, I strongly advise it. If you can, do not cover weddings but anyone with talent would be silly not to consider covering weddings if, and when, an opportunity arises.

I have a friend in Toronto who is a programmer and does wedding photography part time, he does not solicit contracts, people come to him. Word of mouth only, what you call a weekend warrior is actually doing more weddings than some pros I know, without advertising of any sort as a photographer... Go figure. I say if he can do it without a true passion for photography and be really good at it, I am sure anyone who is passionate about photography will do a better job, photography wise.

Taking on a wedding contract is not going in over your head, it is taking a risk, as long as you are honest with the people you deal with, then ... it is all good, i.e., this is my first wedding. So many people here take better pictures than many pros out, how could we do such a terrible job at wedding photography? Heck, most of us here already have been using pro-equipment for a while already...

 

[soofdawg]

I thought you were speaking from experience as a wedding photographer.
Once you been in the industry for a few years, you may completely agree with initial post.

Good at photography or owning pro equipment does not equal 'good at shooting weddings.' There's a lot of things that go into it that many people are just not aware of that go beyond just the pictures.

Please share your experience with us afterwards since it will be your first wedding.

 

[silver]

Please share your experience with us afterwards since it will be your first wedding.

yep, it's one thing to offer advice quite another to offer advice w/o experiance,. wedding photography is difficult and the technical aspects are only a small part of what is required,. anyone can sign a contract and take some pictures - there is a more to it,.

good luck :smile:

 

[VoidRaven]

Please share your experience with us afterwards since it will be your first wedding.

Here was mine from my first and only wedding: NEVER shoot a family wedding. Family assumes you are family and not there to do a job and get VERY irritated when you tell them to get the heck out of the way of the formal shots. I don't care if you're my favorite aunt or not...you can talk to the bride AFTER I'm done doing what she "hired" me to do.