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Challenge Rules - What do you think?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by misupix, Jan 5, 2006.

  1. Yes, please proceed!

    21 vote(s)
  2. No, drop it!

    3 vote(s)
  3. I don't mind!

    1 vote(s)
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  1. After more and more misunderstandings concerning certain Challenge Submissions, I have done a lot of thinking about how to improve the Cafe Challenges. :cool: 

    After presenting them to our "Cafe Leaders" (and getting their OK to proceed), I would like to present them to you now!

    The Challenge Rules were, till now, mostly just copied from the former challenge. But every Challenge Leader presented them slightly different.

    To make the whole Challenge Idea a little clearer and easier to follow, I began collecting them all together and also adding a little explanation.

    For new members or first time participators, it might also be helpful to have these explanations.

    This would result in a "Challenge Basic Set of Rules" or "Challenge FAQ"

    But the actual Challenge Leader will still have the freedom to alter them, if reasonable (except Rule 13 perhaps)?

    It could look like this (this is the Beta Version, feel free to suggest improvements/changes):

    Nikon Cafe Challenge - THE BASIC RULES:

    1. One nikon Cafe Challenge consists of 4 Threads started by the recent Challenge Leader/Host:
      a. the Topic Thread: to reveal the theme and the time frame
      b. the Submission Thread: posted right after, in which the submissions will be posted by the participant
      c. the Voting thread: : in which the votes will be posted, best started when the submission time has ended.
      d. and finally the Result Thread: in which the first, second and third place will be posted after the challenge leader (host) has counted out the votes
    2. the Topic will be picked by the Challenge Leader (mind that everybody should be able to participate)
    3. The submission Time should be approximately 2 weeks (give or take a few days more or less), this way everybody should have enough time to think, plan and take the picture and post it.
      The exact time will be decided by the Challenge Leader
      The time period should be exactly defined: for example
      from Monday 01. January 2006 8.00 UTC GMT till Sunday 14. January 2006 23.59 UTC GMT
      To avoid a time discussion here's a link to help: http://www.worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_UTC.aspx
    4. Voting time should be around one week (again give or take a few days), to give everyone enough time to review and rate the submissions
    5. Every participant is allowed one picture per challenge
    6. The picture has to be taken between the submission Start and End Date. This is to make it a Challenge and not just another "Best Picture Contest"
    7. When posting the Submission it is suggested to give some Information about the Shot. This could be done by posting the EXIF-Data or just sharing the used Equipment or the Exposure.
      For Example:
      Photo_Title, Shooting_Date
      D2X 50mm f2/8 1/300s ISO260
      ShutterPri MatrixMetering
    8. Please give your picture a Title, and explain it a little, if you like!
    9. One can edit/change the Text as often as necessary, but the posted picture must remain unaltered once posted (for possible exceptions contact the Challenge Leader)!
    10. Pictures can be processed/edited and worked on in post production before submitting them, but the main picture/content must have been taken during the submission dates, we must trust in your honesty, not to cheat in this!
    11. please keep the submission within 900x768 pixels, this gives enought Quality and will fit most screens, without needing to scroll it!
    12. Adjust the compression (while saving it as jpg), to keep the file size under 175kb. This should keep loading times down.
    13. Somewhat controversial pictures are permitted, but please use your judgment and keep it within reason. ( Note that this community should remain suitable for all age groups )
    14. In the Voting everyone (it is not necessary to have participated!) is allowed 3 Votes: first place (counting 3 Points), second place (counting 2 Points and third place (counting 1 Point), feel free to comment your vote.
    15. The Challenge Leader/Host has to make sure the rules apply to all submissions. (Best at the end of the submissions time and before starting the voting thread)
    16. If there are any questions or obscurities the Challenge Leader is the person to ask and to decide. (PM are such a great invention!)

    The Nikon Cafe Challenges still from and for the Cafe Members.

    So please feel free to comment and suggest improvements!

    I'm awaiting your thoughts about it!

    :Shy: :Shy: :wink:
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2006
  2. Well, I see you take things serious.
    Good suggestion.

  3. Good initiative for a "sticky" Michael, well done.
    If I may, 2 comments:
    1): I find the voting period of one week too long. Personally I'd like 3 or 4 days.
    2): For a contest, I would allow pictures up to 200KB.
  4. Michael, here are my thoughts about your propoals:

    1. Entries should be consistent. I'd like to see the size of images posted the same. I don't know what this should be, but it would certainly make viewing and judging a lot easier.

    2. I like the idea of posting EXIF information, but I have difficulty doing this, so I just add the info as best I can manually. I'd hate not to be able to participate because I don't have a good way of doing this. I usually use Pbase images for my Challenge entries and the info is posted there. I don't know how to transfer that info when I post my entries.

    3. The voting time could be shortened to be perhaps 5 days.

    4. I'd like to see Challenges start and end on the same time in any Challenge cycle. For example, all Challenges might start on a Sunday and end 14 days later on a Saturday. This would help participants juggle time and schedules. I think everyone would like to see more people participate and anything we can do to encourage this is helpful.

    5. There's a typo in your text about the number of entries (on should be one).

    6. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you explain what would be allowed? "Pictures can be Edited, but must have been taken during the submission dates, we must trust in your honesty!"

    Hope this helps!

    aka beaucamera
  5. Thanks for your suggestions!

    I'll try and explain as good as I can:

    I had the same idea, that should be handled in No. 11, This should keep the pictures at max 900x900 pixels, and this way a picture can be shown whole on a average monitor.

    I do it by simply selecting the EXIF info displayed right under my PBase picture and then copy and paste it into my submission thread!

    This maybe diskussed, I tried to keep at least on weekend in the period to give everyone the opportunity to vote (some may not have time or acces during the week.)

    Good idea! Maybe I'll add this, what do the others think?

    Thank you, already corrected! :redface:

    that's tricky: I mean: we must trust in our members, to not alter or fake something about the Exifdata (the possibility can never be entirely excluded!), but believe me, in case someone did it, we might find out (my favorite TV-Series is Magnum PI! :Guns: :wink: )

  6. Thanks for your suggestions!

    about 1. the voting period:
    I thought about keeping a weekend in the period, I don't know if this is really needed? What do the others think?

    And if we really try to keep the Submission (and the voting) time constant (like Virginia suggested): We'll need full weeks, otherwise we could either longen or shorten the submission time?

    about 2. max picture size
    I found when keeping the max. pixel within 900x900 there is only minimal difference when compressing it further, but this might be open to discuss!

    I just wanted to keep the loading time of the submission thread down, I think not everyone has a really fast connection.

    But I think 200kb would be also possible.
  9. More Thoughts

    Mike, I'm not sure I agree with you about the importance of EXIF information. EXIF is nice, but I'm not sure it's that important for picture submission and entry. To me this is an added feature and shouldn't be a requirement at all! What important, and I agree with you on this point, is that the picture is taken during the submission dates. We talk so much about trust in the Cafe. We've had a lot of people fess up and remove entries from the current challenge because they weren't taken during the submission period. We can't orchestrate trust. I think it's a better policy to ask people to be honest about their submissions and to keep that trust. What will help here is what you are doing now, clearly spelling out Challenge Rules.

    If you feel strongly about this, you might prohibit entry to subsequent Challenges to Challenge violators.

    "Pictures can be processed/edited and worked on in postproduction, but the main picture/content must have been taken during the submission dates, we must trust in your honesty, not to cheat in this!"

    Mike, I have to take issue with this. Why should any picture be changed for any reason after it is submitted, except maybe for clarications in text related to the entry? When I think about entering a Challenge, I look at what others have done and try to figure out what I can do that will be even better. I don't think I really want to have a moving target here. I also view submissions with an eye for how I might judge them. Can't just leave the current system in place and not allow photo modifications after entry?

    aka beaucamera
  10. Yes, please keep some weekends in Challenge Shooting span and, if possible, in the Voting span also.

    Here's an example of a Proposed Challenge Cycle
    that includes a rest period so we don’t all get burned out on Challenges
    and that also allows the new Challenge winner some time to get set up the next Challenge:

    MON:     Announce New Challenge (1 day)
    Tu/W/Th/F/S/SUN/MON/Tu:    Shoot & Post Entry (8-9 days)
    W/Th/F/Sat:   Vote (4 days)
    SUN:     Count Votes & Announce Winners (1 day)
    MON/Tu/W/Th/F/S/SUN:    HIATUS (7 days)

    MON = Monday/Lundi/Lunes/Montag
    SUN = Sunday/Dimanche/Domingo/Sonntag
    and the rest of the abbreviations are sequential !!
  11. I would probably like to see the photo submission size as a suggestion or guideline not as a hard and fast rule.
  12. I'm going to jump in to this discussion. From what I'm reading, it seems to me there's a misunderstanding. Based on my interpretation, the statement in quotes in Virginia's message doesn't refer to editing an "already been submitted" photo, but rather, it clarifies that post processing of a photo is permitted prior to submission.

    This question also arose during a Challenge that I hosted. Pictures should be taken during the Challenge dates and post processing of the image is permitted, but once the photo is submitted, the photo itself should no longer be edited but the accompanying text in the submission thread can be edited.
  13. That's precise, Scott, and well said. I agree.

    aka beaucamera

    P.S. It would be great to have more of you enter this discussion!
  14. Probably Mike is referring to some situation like this as an example:
    I entered a photo in the Challenge but had trouble with linking to a version off of Pbase that didn't have artifacts. So I had to go back and resize my original entry, reload it onto Pbase and relink it to the Cafe Challenge.
    When that happened to me, I offered to withdraw the photo although I had not edited its content, just its sizing. The Challenge moderator for that particular Challenge said it was OK.
    The point is -- it is probably OK to allow for Re-Posting under some circumstances, but not Re-Edits or Re-Shoots. What do you thinnk??
  15. Including the EXIF was initially introduced to let everyone share the knowledge about achieving such a picture, so that everyone can learn more about f-stop, DOF or desired shutter speeds and getting the desired shot. I sure learned a lot from that! And it is only the second reason to control the shooting date. So I would like to keep this in.

    I think we misunderstood each other:

    as stated in No. 9 the picture must not be changed after posting it!

    (I think I'm getting a problem with the English past-tenses :redface: Maybe someone can help me out formulating this?)
    I'll try it once again:

    "Pictures can be processed/edited and worked on in post production before submitting them, but the main picture/content must have been taken during the submission dates, we must trust in your honesty, not to cheat in this!"

  16. Let's maybe define a minimum subset of EXIF data to be posted with the photo for those of us like Virginia and me who don't like to fool around with EXIF.
    Photo_Title Shooting_Date
    D2X 50mm f2/8 1/300s ISO260
    ShutterPri MatrixMetering
  17. Exactly Andrea,

    thats why I wrote No. 16 for!

    Great, now a real productive discussion has started!

    That's what I had in Mind!
    :biggrin: :biggrin:
  18. Andrea, I'm sure this was a special situation that any initial users might have. From that point of view, I think it's perfectly okay for a Challenge host to use his or her judgement in cases like this.

    Here's another one for you. What if there is a tie for first place? Should be give the Challenge host the last say and pick the next host?

    What if a winner declines to host? What happens? I think this happened once already and the second place winner became host.

    aka beaucamera

    P.S. Andrea, I prefer the two week period that we've been doing. Within the time periods for shooting and voting, I believe, there is sufficient time to rest.
  19. Challenge Host awarded to the person who has never run a challenge before.
    If that is not possible, then the current Challenge host tosses the proverbial coin. This is a friendly Challenge, so no-one should get weirded out by how a tie is broken.

    In case a Challenge Winner is not able to perform their duties as Challenge Host for whatever reason, he/she may gracefully pass the Hosting duties to the 2nd-place winner.
    (Just like the Miss America contest, hey?)
    We could have a Stockpile of Challenge Topics, just a few, to draw from and a List of Challenge Host volunteers who will step in and handle the occasional Challenge Hosting duties just for the glory of it all!!! :~}
  20. Ken-L

    Ken-L Guest

    I don't mind how you make changes, but keep in mind that this forum is NOT suposed to be for "professionals only". nor is it meant to exclude people who are not "computer experts".

    So, if you establish difficult rules, conditions, technical requirements, etc., you may prohibit members (you know, those IMPORTANT people in this forum) from joining the "contests".

    I understand that this makes it more difficult to design and establish rules that keep it honest, make the submissions uniform, and make it a "level playing field".....but the most important issue and focus must be making this aforum that can be enjoyed and used by ALL members!
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