Challenge Rules - What do you think?

[RFCGRAPHICS]

I believe in the honor system. As long as the contest rules are clearly understood, I feel no need for EXIF verification.


Regards

RFC

 

[biggstr6]

I agree with the trust issue myself.
Besides why would anyone knowingly cheat ? For What ? Its just a little freindly photo Chalenge (I wont even call it a contest). No prizes ,nothing , just a exercise to help push us to a higher level.

 

[Ken-L]

This all seems to be no fun anymore.

Too serious

Certainly working on it.........

 

[AFS]

I believe in the honor system. As long as the contest rules are clearly understood, I feel no need for EXIF verification.


Regards

RFC

I believe in honor as well. But as the current challenge proves, sometimes people just don't read the rules beforehand. Example: all the out of time period submissions this time. If one isn't admitted or realized, we could have a pretender on the throne <img>

 

[MarkM]

This all seems to be no fun anymore.

To serious

OK, now for my two cents worth. I agree with Gale. I had no trouble understanding & following the original 8 rules and to me, the additional ones were merely trying to explain and clarify the original ones (which to me, were fine).

I do like the suggestion that the start & end days be uniform to all future challenges - regardless if it is one week or two. That is a welcome piece of uniformity to me.

As a newbie, even if I do not enter a submission, I could learn from the exif data - at the least it would give me a start point to experiment with and tweak for my growing style and technique.

Yes, yes, yes already! We all know and agree that copying exif data to clipboard and pasting it in the thread opens up the possiblility to edit the shoot date but we all agree that we are honest adults here, so we have to accept the info as true. I choose to belive that the reason we had a few submissions withdrawn was due to everybody being caught up in the D200 and new lens madness (not to mention preparing for the holiday festivities) and not a deliberate act of dishonesty. If a member has reason to doubt the validity of a submission (as an example, you recognize the image from attending a prior cafe shooting event, pm the person and/or moderator for review).

As to the comments about "keeping a level playing field" and not "being a best picture contest", well, to me, both of those scenarios currently exist. The current challenge contains submissions that are almost impossible for rookies to duplicate, much less compete against. It seems to me that the use of composite images and extensive post processing and manipulation in any software, blows the "level playing field" to heck AND creates the "best picture" scenario.

I will close with my own experience since joining the cafe. On the 15th, my mother lost half a rib to make room for the surgen to cut away 1/3 of her kidney to remove a baseball sized cancer tumor. On the 17th, my D200 arrived. From the 19th to current, I am in a contract dispute with a plumber, hired on the 12th to rip out and replace my sewer line. On the 20th, I joined this family and my mother came home from the hospital (she is recovering and I am a good son who visits her regularly). From the 20th to current, my fiancee and I are providing the meals for two households. On the 23rd, my lens arrived. From the 24th to the 30th, relatives were down from Ohio. I received Photoshop CS2 for Christmas but did not have time to install until after the new year.

Having said all that (I do apologize for my personal novel here), I was able to not only enter the challenge, but receive votes as well. I am humbled, honored and bow to you my peers. Now, if I thought that I would be competing head to head with seasoned veterans submitting composite images, professional grade images (due to extensive knowledge and use of software), images that fit the challenge but were taken before the challenge was announced, I would not have entered and probably felt like the challenge was nothing more than a "best shot contest" and newbies need not apply.

I say that the challenges should be single images with minimal software enhancement.

Hey, how about this? how about periodic challenges that provide all entrants the same previously shot image and the challenge is to show off your software skills to enhance the image?

Ok, I have exceeded my two cents worth, sorry folks.

Good evening to all
Mark

 

[RFCGRAPHICS]

I just finished reading the whole thread. Ken-L and Gale are 100 % correct IMHO.

I always thought these challenges were suppose to be about fun for all.

If it were up to me I would have 3 simple rules.

1) Your submitted image must have been taken during the submission dates
2) Keep it suitable for all ages
3) HAVE FUN !



regards

RFC

I don't mind how you make changes, but keep in mind that this forum is NOT suposed to be for "professionals only". nor is it meant to exclude people who are not "computer experts".

So, if you establish difficult rules, conditions, technical requirements, etc., you may prohibit members (you know, those IMPORTANT people in this forum) from joining the "contests".

I understand that this makes it more difficult to design and establish rules that keep it honest, make the submissions uniform, and make it a "level playing field".....but the most important issue and focus must be making this aforum that can be enjoyed and used by ALL members!

 

[Chris101]

We've been having Challenges with rules since nearly the beginning of the Cafe. I just looked at the last dozen or so Challenges and mostly the rules are the same:

RULES
1. One picture per participant

2. Please give your picture a Title.

3. One can edit/change the text of the entry as often as necessary, but the posted pics are to remain unaltered once posted.

4. Pictures can be edited in PS but must have been taken during the submission dates.

5. Somewhat controversial pictures are permitted, but please use your judgment and keep it within reason.

6. Please include the EXIF data so that everyone can learn from your exceptional shooting skills and meet the submission time requirements.

7. The submission thread should be used only for submission of your picture.

SUBMISSION:
1. Submission for this challenge starts on - Day of Week; Month, Day, Year; at Time UTC/GMT
... And will end on - Day of Week; Month, Day, Year; at Time UTC/GMT.

2. Pictures must be taken within this time period.

3. To avoid time disputes the following website will be used as our time standard:
http://www.worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_UTC.aspx

So it looks like the the only differences between Michael's proposal and what we've been living with (since last June) are 1) the size (dimensions and file size) of submissions, 2) definitions of the four threads, and 3) additional duties of the person hosting the challenge (to verify compliance.)

Am I reading things correctly?

 

[JustinD]

I, personally, don't see a problem with a "Best Picture" contest. Throwing out the rule of having to submit a photo taken during the sumbission times would broaden the playing field, garner a lot more sumbissions, and make it more enjoyable. Let the two weeks for duration of the contest stand, but, get rid of the rule that states the image must have been taken during the two week submission timeframe.

As an example - during this last "Challenge" - Geometry - I had an image that would have been great for it except for the fact that I took it a year ago. Due to work I didn't have enough time to come up with an alternative image. I'd like to see the rule done away with.

Aside from that, the EXIF debate and whatnot, I agree with what everyone else has said.

 

[nfoto]

Whether keen amateurs, aspiring professionals, or computer-tired seasoned pros, we all need a challenge for our visual creativity. Coupling the creativity challenge to a short, temporal window is what makes the challenge worthy of attention. So if there is anything to vote over, my vote goes to keeping the timeframe as is, images to be taken during a given period, and if you think the audience needs EXIF to understand or enjoy your masterpiece then add it to your submission.

 

[Ken-L]

OK, now for my two cents worth.....
As to the comments about "keeping a level playing field" and not "being a best picture contest", well, to me, both of those scenarios currently exist. The current challenge contains submissions that are almost impossible for rookies to duplicate, much less compete against. It seems to me that the use of composite images and extensive post processing and manipulation in any software, blows the "level playing field" to heck AND creates the "best picture" scenario......

.....Now, if I thought that I would be competing head to head with seasoned veterans submitting composite images, professional grade images (due to extensive knowledge and use of software), images that fit the challenge but were taken before the challenge was announced, I would not have entered and probably felt like the challenge was nothing more than a "best shot contest" and newbies need not apply.....

.....I say that the challenges should be single images with minimal software enhancement.....

Ok, I have exceeded my two cents worth, sorry folks.

Good evening to all
Mark

Mark, your comments are not worth 2¢ - they are worth MUCH more because they not only have a lot of truths, they also represent a point of view that is likely felt by many who would not speak out.

We could "split hairs" and there are certainly some who would argue adamantly one way or the other. What constitues a photo? Is it the image that comes from the camera without post-processing?

How much PP would be appropriate? None? All? If I take a "photo" and then process the image that came from the camera to the point that it not only no longer looks like the original photo, but in fact doesn't look like anything recognizable at all, and certainly not a "photo of something", is that still a "photo for a contest"? Perhaps impressionistic works should have a separate contest, and photos that are identifiable as a photograph of something would be another.

Wow, this can get very complicated. Maybe we just have to let the judges decide. Eventually these issues sort themselves out. For instance, if I entered a contest for a "portrait" and posted the best likeness I could of someone with processing to enhance it and give it a pleasing look, and then found that another "photo" WON that looked like something Picasso might have painted under the influence of LSD, I would simply stop entering the contests. See, it is a difficult issue!

Hopefully we will evolve a system where anyone can enter these contests and feel they really do have a chance to "win". If not, there will be less and less entries. The "silent majority" will become disinterested. We will lose our friendly family-like forum and just a few will enjoy it. But have faith! Our forum leaders are down-to-earth people with good common sense. I'll end this editorial with a quote from my favorite philosopher, Eric Hoffer:

"More significant than the fact that poets write abstrusely, painters paint abstractly, and composers compose unintelligible music is that people should admire what they cannot understand; indeed, admire that which has no meaning or principle."

 

[silver]

fwiw my view is to keep the timeframe, taking a picture with the theme in mind is fun and part of the challenge I think.

winning or loosing is no matter, it's fun to take part and challenge yourself and for the picture taker to compare works (regardless of how others vote) :smile:

I like to see the exif or shooting details, esp if it the shot looks like it uses an unusual technique, whether it should be mandatory is another matter, I'd say 'encourage' submitters to post exif where possible.

Sil

 

[misupix]

Ok, so many more productive suggestions! :biggrin:

Sorry I haven't answered for a while, but I'm just trying to monitor the discussion and periodically combining it, to alter the rules accordingly!


I'll try and do another roundup!


Like Chris already stated:
- most of the rules have existed almost from the beginning of the challenges, I just wrote them together and explained a little more (where I thought it was necessary) to make it easier to actually understand the modus. This was my idea because I experience some things weren't always as clear to the participants then we wanted.


- one Problem was the Time frame, I think we a consent that is a main part of these Challenges and will remain! But some, either forgot or just didn't realized that the picture has to be taken in the time frame, that's why I defined it so strong!



- because when most of the submissions follow this rule, everyone should be treated equal!


- as for the EXIF info, I sense: to some this is a real Problem! (I can't understand it, but will take it into account! :biggrin: )

- I will change this Rule to this:

When posting the Submission it is suggested to give some Information about the Shot. This could be done by posting the EXIF-Data or just sharing the used Equipment or the Exposure.
For Example:
Photo_Title, Shooting_Date
D2X 50mm f2/8 1/300s ISO260
ShutterPri MatrixMetering​

- About my suggestions for the Size or the file size: These are only to keep it easier to review the pictures. It's rather difficult to compare pictures displayed in totally different sizes, plus I sometimes use my Laptop for browsing (1280x800 pixel screen) and found it annoying to not be able to see the entire picture, this can destroy the effect of a picture!

- about the 4 threads:
These have evolved over the last 10 or so challenges, and are not my invention! But sometimes a leader forgot one and this caused some confusion.

For Explanation again:
The Topic thread reveals the Topic and collect comments or questions about the Challenge and this Way keeps the Submission and Voting thread clean of these discussions.
the Submission thread and Voting thread should be clear.
The Result thread reveals the Winners and is used to congratulate the Winners or just chat about the Challenge.





Finally, I suggested these Rules as a Guideline: mind the Sentence just before the Rules:

This would result in a "Challenge Basic Set of Rules" or "Challenge FAQ"

But the actual Challenge Leader will still have the freedom to alter them, if reasonable (except Rule 13 perhaps)?

(Oh my god what is happening to me: I'm already quoting myself! :redface: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink

I have to make a break here, social activities.....

I will be back later! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

 

[misupix]

to Mark M, Ken L:

I certainly can see your point!

But I can't really approve to it!

Just look there: The Challenge Winners so far

As you browse through the former Winners, you will find that not everytime the most complex or most worked on Entrys got the most votes!
To me it seems, that the idea and overall attractiveness (is that a word?) of the picture has more to do with it.


The winners are voted by the members, not some snobbish jury! And to me it seems pretty unpredictable, which one will get the most votes!

And BTW, Winning isn't the overall goal of this Challenges (just leads to have to work for the next Challenge :wink: )!
Participating, sharing your work, hearing what others think about it, getting new influences and YES maybe getting some credit for a good Entry, should be also intended. Don't you think.

BTW:
What happened to this discussion?
No post for the last few hours, did I suddenly do everything right?​

 

[RFCGRAPHICS]

As you can see, there are many different view points on these issues. Ultimately you will never be able to keep everyone happy and maybe that is why the "Founding Fathers" had the wisdom to let the person hosting the challenge, set the conditions of the challenge. And not just one individual.




Regards

RFC

to Mark M, Ken L:

I certainly can see your point!

But I can't really approve to it!

 

[misupix]

As you can see, there are many different view points on these issues. Ultimately you will never be able to keep everyone happy and maybe that is why the "Founding Fathers" had the wisdom to let the person hosting the challenge, set the conditions of the challenge. And not just one individual.

Regards
RFC

Well, you may be right.


I just wish to point out, that:

This would result in a "Challenge Basic Set of Rules" or "Challenge FAQ"

But the actual Challenge Leader will still have the freedom to alter them, if reasonable (except Rule 13 perhaps)?

I will include this to the Rules!
​

- the "Founding Fathers" were contacted before I started to do this Poll, and approved it to be a good idea and to go for it.

- in the Poll over 80% voted to do it.

- As I already stated before, the Rules (which I collected here!) evolved naturally in the former Challenges. (BTW they weren't changed by any Leader, at least in the last 5 Challenges!)

- the new suggestions I added, are what I found, would make viewing the submissions more comfortable (Size, compression)
or
give additional explanations/clarifications to the most questioned things (and therefore mean less work for the Challenge Leaders and Admins).



In the last Challenge (I had to pleasure to host), we had some withdrawals.
After that you wouldn't believe how many PM's and E-mails I got demanding, to take a closer look at this or that Entry.

And my understanding is, that it is only fair to apply the rules to everyone equally.

I don't suspect anyone to disregard any rule intentionally, but if some take the time to read them and adjust to them, we need to make sure everyone does.

That is why I started to explain them more precisely.
My intention is to post these Suggestions for the Rules, as a sticky in the Challenge Forum, to have a foundation for future discussions and as a kind of FAQ for every new participant.

I will now try to reformat them, to get a more clear structure, and to summarize the other suggestions we got here, and will post that soon.

 

[misupix]

BTW

I hope after this,
I won't be memorized as the "nitpicking German" :redface: :wink:

You will have to keep in mind:
I'm from the south most former Kingdom of Bavaria, and here we are usually much more involved in "beer drinking" than in "nitpicking"!

:wink::wink::wink::wink::wink::wink::wink::wink: :wink::wink::wink::wink::wink::wink::wink::wink:
​

 

[misupix]

Final Version?

Nikon Cafe Challenge - THE BASIC RULES / Explanations:
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->

<!--[endif]--><o></o> 1. The Nikon Cafe Challenge usually consists of 4 Threads, started by the recent Challenge Leader/Host:

a. the Topic Thread: to reveal the theme and the time frame
b. the Submission Thread: posted right after, in which the submissions will be posted by the participant
c. the Voting Thread: : in which the votes will be posted, best started when the submission time has ended.
d. and finally the Result Thread: in which the first, second and third place will be posted after the challenge leader (host) has counted out the votes

<o></o>​

2. The Topic will be picked by the Challenge Leader (mind that everybody should be able to participate)

3. The submission Time should be approximately 2 weeks (give or take a few days more or less), this way everybody should have enough time to think, plan and take the picture and to post it.

The exact time will be decided by the Challenge Leader
The time period should be exactly defined: for example
from Monday 01. January 2006 8.00 UTC GMT till Sunday 14. January 2006 23.59 UTC GMT
To avoid a time discussion best use this link to help: http://www.worldtimeserver.com/current_time_in_UTC.aspx
​

<o></o>
4. Voting time should be around one week (again give or take a few days), to give everyone enough time to review and rate the submissions.

<o></o>5. Every participant is allowed one picture per challenge.<o></o>

6. The picture has to be taken between the submission Start and End Date. This is to make it a "Challenge" and not just another "Best Picture Contest"<o></o>


7. When posting the Submission it is suggested to give some Information about the Shot. This could be done by posting the EXIF-Data or just sharing the used Equipment or the Exposure.

For Example:
Photo_Title, Shooting_Date
D2X 50mm f2/8 1/300s ISO260
ShutterPri MatrixMetering<o></o>
​

8. Please give your picture a Title, and feel free to explain it a little!<o></o>

9. One can edit/change the Text as often as necessary, but the posted picture must remain unaltered, once posted (for possible exceptions contact the Challenge Leader)!<o></o>

10. Pictures can be processed/edited and worked on, in post production before submitting them, but the main picture/content must have been taken during the submission dates. We must trust in your honesty, not to cheat in this!<o></o>

11. Please keep the submission within 900x768 pixels, this gives enough Quality and will fit most screens, without needing to scroll it!<o></o>

12. Adjust the compression (while saving it as jpg), to keep the file size under 175kb. This should keep loading times down.

13. Somewhat controversial pictures are permitted, but please use your judgment and keep it within reason. ( Note that this community should remain suitable for all age groups )<o></o>

14. While Voting (it is not necessary to have participated to give your vote!): everyone is allowed 3 Votes: first place (counting 3 Points), second place (counting 2 Points and third place (counting 1 Point), feel free to comment your vote.<o></o>

15. The Challenge Leader/Host has to make sure the rules apply to all submissions. (Best at the end of the submissions time and before starting the voting thread)<o></o>

16. If there are any questions or obscurities the Challenge Leader is the person to appeal and to decide. (PM are such a great invention!)

17. The actual Challenge Leader has the freedom to alter these Rules, if reasonable (except Rule 13 perhaps). But he has to make sure everyone will notice and that every entry sticks to that.


<o></o><!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->

<!--[endif]--><o></o>

If there are any Questions regarding the Challenges or any technical aspect of participating or submitting,
please don't hesitate to contact either me or the Challenge Leader or any other member.

We will be happy to help.​

 

[PGB]

Michael and the membership,

Thank you for taking the time to participate in this discussion.

I look forward to many more Challenges in the coming year.

Good Luck to all!