For those of you that do T&I work...

Joined
Aug 26, 2008
Messages
2,283
Location
NY
I do a pretty good amount of T&I. The percentage diminishes as they get older. For youth (ages 6-11) leagues (baseball/softball/basketball) that I do, the percentage is pretty good. I would saw as high as 85% of players place an order. As you progress up to junior high it stays pretty high around 80%. Junior Varsity age goes down a bit to 75% and varsity ages are around 70%. There is decent money in T&I if you can get into getting league contracts.
 
Joined
Jun 11, 2009
Messages
426
Location
Baton Rouge, LA / Bham, AL
In my experiences, the avg family income and package choices greatly effects the % of purchases. Interesting enough, the wealthiest families purchase the least amount around 50% with the lowest income families purchasing 60% and the low to middle income purchasing an astonishing 80-90%. Because of this, changing up the packages between different leagues is KEY.
 
Joined
Nov 17, 2007
Messages
2,727
Location
USA
Agree that the younger teams buy more. I'm shooting the local U9-U15 boys and girls lacrosse teams right now. I find that it's best to send out order forms ahead of time, fulfill the orders you get at the shoot, then I post all of them online (SmugMug) so that the laggards can see the results and order later. What surprises me is how many parents don't buy some of my favorite individual shots. With 14 teams I still should make > $3000 for the effort.
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
1,200
Location
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
I've been photographing my daughters' ringette association for the past 3 years and I have parents pre-order/pre-pay but it is true that the younger the player, the more sales I make. I'd say that 95-98% of families with kids ages 5-14 purchase photos but with the older kids (ages 15-17) it drops to 80-85%.

What I'm going to offer next season is digital copies as part of my packages as many of the older girls want photos for Facebook ... so if I offer a combination of prints & digital files, I'm sure I can get even more of the older kids to place orders as it will offer prints for parents & digital copies for the players. Also, with the older girls, they are often the ones who decide if they want the photos or not ... and if one or two decide it's "cool" to get the photos, then the others will fall in line because, after all, who wants to be the only one without an awesome photo for their Facebook profile????! :biggrin:

Take care,

Brent
 
Joined
Feb 15, 2009
Messages
481
Location
Oregon
Thanks for the responses. Pretty consistent in the take rate assessment. So why am I asking?

  • I was approached by one of my ski racing clients to do action shots of a soccer league (kindergarten - U11) of which she is on the board
  • She was thinking of doing action shots rather than the traditional T&I as there is a sentiment in the league that "it easy to get a decent team photo" and the teams/parents didn't like the hassle of a photo day (many teams just don't show up)
  • This is a fairly large league (360 players across 30 teams)
  • I've never done traditional T&I but I have done action shots:smile:
So...here is the proposal that was pitched to and accepted by the board:

  • Put a photography fee into the registration fee. This per player fee is passed 100% to me. :smile: This is the good part.
  • For this fee, I'll take action shots of each team (this part has me quaking in my boots) and deliver the game photos digitally (download) to the families
I know I'm going to have a problem getting action shots of each player at the game I cover. So...at each game, I'll take a quick team photo and individual action shots either before or at half time. This way, I get everyone covered.

In addition, to the delivered images, I'll offer some traditional T&I print packages based on the impromptu team photo and staged action shot. In addition, I would plan to offer value-add products such as magazine covers, posters, etc.

My reasoning (flawed that it may be) is that the built-in photo fee delivers a baseline level of revenue that I can live with for the work I put in and that I can still garner >50% take rate on the T&I type packages to sweeten the deal...

Thoughts? Have I screwed myself?
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
Messages
1,922
Location
Northeast, CT
Good plan Mike, really all depends on the photo fee that you'll be getting in the end. With 360 kids it could be pretty good for you. Just remember, in the end a traditional T&I day is generally 1-2 days, and your done shooting. With action there are going to be multiple days in order to get all 30 teams, especially if they don't play on the same day. And some times kids aren't at the games you go to due to other things like vacation, other obligations etc. Let alone rainy days etc where there are cancellations. Will either make for some long days or a few long weeks. Hopefully the photo fee is enough to cover your work. And you get some traditional sales as well.

Lets put some figures into play here as well.

360 kids @ $20per (don't want to scare some players away sure the registration is high already) - $7200
30 teams probably cover 2-3 games of each to get all the players needed. So 30-45 games at an hour a piece, $160 per game at 45 games. Not bad but then figure in all the work to make sure you got all the kids, as well as teams. You could end up going back for 2-3 more games. You'll need to make sure you get complete rosters from the league, so you make sure you get everyone!! Plus post work.

Add to that your hope to get a T&I shots before the game, very tough to do, although possible. Figure if its an evening game and young teams they show up right before the game, like 5-10 minutes, not enough time to capture 2 teams of T&I. Unless you set it up with the teams prior there is a good chance your not getting it done.

Not saying its a bad idea, but if anything. Would be good to offer the action built in like you have, but also have them do a T&I day or 2. offer packages at a large discount so you can still make a little more decent $$.

One question I'd like to ask is with the photo fee how many photos are you required to produce for each kid?? Say one kid has 20 pix and another has 2 how is that fair with the fees??? I'd say if anything your in for a whole lot of work! Especially if photography is just a part time gig for you!!
 
Joined
Feb 15, 2009
Messages
481
Location
Oregon
Good plan Mike, really all depends on the photo fee that you'll be getting in the end. With 360 kids it could be pretty good for you. Just remember, in the end a traditional T&I day is generally 1-2 days, and your done shooting. With action there are going to be multiple days in order to get all 30 teams, especially if they don't play on the same day. And some times kids aren't at the games you go to due to other things like vacation, other obligations etc. Let alone rainy days etc where there are cancellations. Will either make for some long days or a few long weeks. Hopefully the photo fee is enough to cover your work. And you get some traditional sales as well.

Lets put some figures into play here as well.

360 kids @ $20per (don't want to scare some players away sure the registration is high already) - $7200
30 teams probably cover 2-3 games of each to get all the players needed. So 30-45 games at an hour a piece, $160 per game at 45 games. Not bad but then figure in all the work to make sure you got all the kids, as well as teams. You could end up going back for 2-3 more games. You'll need to make sure you get complete rosters from the league, so you make sure you get everyone!! Plus post work.

Add to that your hope to get a T&I shots before the game, very tough to do, although possible. Figure if its an evening game and young teams they show up right before the game, like 5-10 minutes, not enough time to capture 2 teams of T&I. Unless you set it up with the teams prior there is a good chance your not getting it done.

Not saying its a bad idea, but if anything. Would be good to offer the action built in like you have, but also have them do a T&I day or 2. offer packages at a large discount so you can still make a little more decent $$.

One question I'd like to ask is with the photo fee how many photos are you required to produce for each kid?? Say one kid has 20 pix and another has 2 how is that fair with the fees??? I'd say if anything your in for a whole lot of work! Especially if photography is just a part time gig for you!!
Thanks Geoff for the sanity check. I agree I'm in for a whole lot of work. I'll be meeting with the photo rep of the league in a couple of weeks to go over many of the concerns that you've expressed. I'll let you know how this plays out.
 
Joined
Jun 11, 2009
Messages
426
Location
Baton Rouge, LA / Bham, AL
Mike, I'll also say that the inclusive fee in registration is the worst way to go about making profits. Upselling packages takes a nose dive. However, some leagues, thats the only way they work. With the leagues I dealt with, it was usually only a $8-$10 fee (because league wouldn't justify any higher) and yes it is a 100% rate because everyone has to pay. But compared to 70-80%min rate at a $18-$45 packages, the registration fee just doesn't compare. Upselling for me on those inclusive fee leagues is around 10-15% if I'm lucky. If it were me, there's no way I'd touch doing action shots via inclusive fee unless that fee was upwards of $20 or more.
 
Joined
Jul 27, 2008
Messages
494
Location
Fort Worth, TX
Man, I don't know how you're going to keep track of getting all the kids in every team. Also, you haven't mentioned anyone else helping you with this. Are you sure you can do this yourself?

Most soccer leagues have complexes with different size fields for the different age groups so multiple teams can play at the same time. How can you ensure you'll be able to get every kid, in every team, by yourself? Have you considered offering a work-for-hire deal to another photographer for a few games to help cover the games faster and more efficiently?

Just a suggestion, and only if said photographer's work and equipment is at par or better with yours.

And if you don't have Lightroom, get it. You'll be processing thousands of photos and you don't want the slowest link to be post processing.

I wish you luck! Make sure and ask them all these questions and then see if it's still worth your time and wear & tear on your equipment.

Also, don't forget taxes. If you do make that much off of this, you gotta report it, so that takes away some of your net income right there...
 
Links on this page may be to our affiliates. Sales through affiliate links may benefit this site.
Nikon Cafe is a fan site and not associated with Nikon Corporation.
Forum post reactions by Twemoji: https://github.com/twitter/twemoji
Forum GIFs powered by GIPHY: https://giphy.com/
Copyright © Amin Forums, LLC
Top Bottom