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i got banding too

Discussion in 'Nikon DX DSLR Forum' started by mrdinh, Dec 26, 2005.

  1. mrdinh


    Mar 8, 2005
    North Dakota
    just like the post in fm forums: all though only 3 images has this issue...so far hundred of shots are ok...i think?

    shot in raw and sharpened in nikon editor, raw non compressed, med-low in camera sharpening, iso400...don't have capture

    with high sharpening

    without sharpening
  2. Hi, thanks for posting these photos. I've been wanting to purchase the D200 myself, hopefully the second batch will have this issue resolved. BTW, did you use the SB800 with these photos? I've read elsewhere that it seem to happens more with the SB800. Thanks again.........
  3. mrdinh


    Mar 8, 2005
    North Dakota
    yes, this is with that flash
  4. mrdinh


    Mar 8, 2005
    North Dakota
    it this blooming?...its in the manual on page 187
  5. Exposure...

    It looks quite noisy for ISO 400, did you push the exposure in PP ?
  6. nfoto

    nfoto Guest

    In my test shots I can get signs of "banding" if the image is grossly underexposed (more than -3 stops), then has the shadows lifted over 5 stops. When an image is mistreated like this some banding is not your main problem, since the image as a whole is in a pretty badly shape anyway.
  7. TOF guy

    TOF guy

    Mar 11, 2005
    Hi Bjørn,

    There was once a post in the Nikon D70 from somebody who thought his D70 had "banding". He too was applying this kind of extreme treatment to his images. I did a check with my own D70 and found that if you try hard enough you may see "banding" in a D70 image. It did look like the sensivity is not uniform accross the sensor but varies very slightly from one line to the other. Apply the right post-processing and the D70 - probably any digital camera for that matter - presents banding.

    Back to the D200, my hypothesis is that what they see is blooming, not banding.

    Indeed in all pictures posted on the D200 dpreview forum with that kind of artefact, the "banding" is systematically next to an area that is strongly overexposed (a light source, a strong specular, ...). Also the streaking goes accross the smaller dimension of the sensor (the way most CCDs are read).

    What confuses people is that blooming in the D200 seems more controlled than in the D70, producing different artefacts. First, it does not extend as far. Second and more relevant (and unexpected), the leakage seems to skip lines: one or two lines show leakage from the over-exposed area, than one or two lines are not affected, followed by one or that are affected, etc. This yields a repetitive pattern of alternate bright and dark stripes that people call banding (they make me thing of a comb).

    Have you had the time to take a very few pics with a bright source in it with a D200 ? (and better with a D70 and a D2X as well), I'd be very interested to read about your own observations.

    Happy New Year !

  8. nfoto

    nfoto Guest

    Yes, tried to shoot directly into the sun to provoke "banding", and still had to abuse the image grossly to get the weakest signs of anything. So I'm not convinced this is a real issue. Blooming of the sensor was a real issue for D70 (CCD) on those subjects but not on D200(CCD) or D2X (CMOS).

    I've seen those allegedly supportive images on the web and am puzzled as to how the comb-like pattern arises. From most DSLRs you can get "banding" which really is a precise recording of the phases of alternating current (AC), 50 Hz here in Europe. You can easily see this if you shoot rain on a dark night in the vicinity of a street light, the raindrop trails get "zebra-striped" crosswise due to the AC. I observed this first time with D1 and have recorded similar will all later Nikon models.

    The comblike weave on D200 might be a "beat" or interference pattern between CCD read-out and AC current of the light source. Really hard to tell for the time being and not an easy matter to isolate for testing.
  9. mrdinh


    Mar 8, 2005
    North Dakota
    but the weird thing is only the first few shots had this then the rest of the images the lines gone away...my living room lighting did not changed that much...and i'm not sure about bright lighting...just a flourence light thats it
  10. Bjorn
    Based on your preliminary observations, would it be fair to say that this so called banding occurs when shots are radically abused and that with correct exposure this is unlikely to be an issue at all?

    I tend to expose reasonably well and I've seen no evidence of any so called banding on any of my shots.

    As I'm not a pixel peeper, I'm not about to try and abuse my exposures beyond the limits of the camera in order to "manufacture" something that I don't think is an issue in normal photographic techniques.

    I suspect that a lot of the issue that are being made over the D200 are a result of ignorance and lack of technique rather than a real camera issue.

    You are always the voice of reason here. Once you, Tom Hogan and DPR have published their reviews, perhaps the madness at DPR will be diminished a bit.

    I hope so.


  11. Gale


    Jan 26, 2005
    Viera Fl
    Madness and insanity and trouble makers with never end at DPR.. Not a sane place anymore.

    It is not moderated......
  12. nfoto

    nfoto Guest

    Peter: I'd tend to agree, but find I haven't yet come to grips with this alleged issue. So testing continues.

    Sometimes you, unexpectedly, find irregularities when a camera is pushed to the extreme. For example with D70, I discovered a "weave" noise pattern at speeds faster than 1/2500 sec, under very special conditions, no trace of it otherwise. Is there something strange going on with D200, too? Cannot decide this yet. I do know that its CCD handles overload in a more graceful manner than did D70, but where is that overload drained?

    Also we need to remind ourselves that a digital camera does by necessity have a discrete output, so when we look too closely at the imager there always will be a pattern visible.

    That DPR frenzy might cease just because of some reviews is a nice thought, but hardly realistic.
  13. nfoto

    nfoto Guest

    This is an example of the degree of abuse I need to employ before any sign of the tiniest banding occurs. See legend below for details.


    Legend as follows,

    A. Original. Exposure -3 stops below meter reading to show sun rays.

    B. Added +2 EV to basic exposure in Bibble Pro 4.5, then increased "exposure" further by curve tool so as to bring RGB-levels above 12 into clipping.

    C. 200% crop of original. Note no signs of CCD blooming, no signs of shadow noise.

    D. 200% crop of abused image (B). Barely visible signs of banding noise.

    Taken with 28 mm f/2 Nikkor AI at f/22, 1/160 sec, ISO-equivalent 100.

    Does this test show that there is an issue with D200? Absolutely not.
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