Is it right to kill life to study it?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Harry S., Apr 4, 2007.

  1. In a reply to a post in the macro section, Chris asked this question and I thought it might be worth to hear others opinions on that.

    I sincerely hope that this thread will not degrade into something radically political or religious, although policy and religion may play a certain part in this.

    O.k. this is my first input (actually what I wanted to reply to Chris's post but then decided it would not fit in the original thread):

    I kill thousands of insects (mostly beetles) every year for scientific purpose. There are quite a few people who blame me for that but my response is that if you drive 100 miles on a warm and humid late afternoon in summer your car kills more insects than I can kill in a whole life (and that's only one car!). That doesn't include all the birds, hares, hedgehogs, deer, etc. that are killed by cars. All the hunters (and poachers) of Austria cannot wreak such a havoc among wildlife as the traffic does. Most people don't give any thought to this fact.
    So, Chris's question might well be modified into "is it right to kill life to go from A to B?"

    The same thoughts come up when large areas (even protected areas) of natural habitats are cleared for industrial plants, but when you go in there and collect a few insects you will be fined.....

    I have other examples of absurd conservation law interpretations but I would like to hear your opinions first.

    Cheers
     
  2. Igor

    Igor

    May 15, 2005
    Ukraine, Europe
    My reply/input would be short: if you already evolved high enough and feel guilty for any/every death you caused, don't kill.

    I'd also add (a bit OT) I quit shooting animals in the Zoo for a few years now.... it's quite similar....
     
  3. Chris101

    Chris101

    Feb 2, 2005
    Arizona
    Whoa! Harry! I was responding to an excellent animation of a blooming iris made by another member, and making fun of the idea that his wife would be upset that he took an iris out of her garden to make that movie. I guess that I am also struggling with my inability to remain true to all of my own personal values.

    I love your pictures of earwigs, ... er, beetles, and support the science of entomology, for sure! The fact that you, Ed and others can record elements of nature that I will never be able to see is wonderful, and the reason that I am here!!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2017
  4. A cockroach was on my porch today. Instead of killing it, I kicked it really hard. I haven't seen it since. Mesquitoes and flies, those are bugs worthy of death!
     
  5. Mart61

    Mart61

    Dec 23, 2006
    Camberley, UK
    Gosh! You're allowed to shoot animals in the zoo in your country? If you did that here, you'd be in a world of trouble! :smile:

    But seriously, I value life but, for medical research purposes, if countless animals need to be sacrificed to find a cure for cancer/aids/whatever, then so be it.

    However I think it's wrong to use animals to test the effects of cosmetics/cigarettes etc. Having said that, I wouldn't protest against it.

    And as far as eating animals is concerned, bring it on! I love to eat many types of animal!

    :biggrin:
     
  6. Hey...
    why not, we in the US kill babies. But then they are
    usually bigger so they take up more space, don't ya know!
     
  7. A video game came out a couple of years ago called Deer Hunter, I believe, where the Deer were the Hunters. Now THAT would be a kick, eh????? :biggrin: :biggrin:

    But back to your question, philosophically/ethically/morally I see no problem at all. To me the "tricky bit" here is trusting that said research is done in a "moral and ethical" manner, and isn't THAT just rampant with subjective interpretation.

    This is a really tough question, lot's of slippery slopes to slide down, and quite different answers, I think, when you go from insects, to rats, to chimps.

    These questions do keep the Medical Ethicists in businees however.
     
  8. Quote: Is it right to kill life to study it? Unquote.

    All within reason...




    Quote: "I have other examples of absurd conservation law interpretations but I would like to hear your opinions first." Unquote

    No matter where you live, many laws and regulations are simply "knee-jerk reactions" to events that may have happened, but make absolutely no sense under normal circumstances. Then, some of those laws and regs are being re-interpreted to fit the extreme beliefs of activists <political & otherwise> , who want to impose those beliefs on the general population. It's the "terror of the few".
     
  9. I'll add another voice to the "within reason" crowd. I used to hunt, when I was younger. Yes, it was for sport... we used (ate) the animals we hunted, but we didn't need to hunt them. I don't do this anymore. The only animals I kill are pests I can't get rid of any other way... flies, etc. Shoot, I even relocate the rattlesnakes I find around to the hills, which drives my in-laws, who hate snakes, nuts! :smile: However, if using animals to fulfill an actual human need arises, I have no problem with it, as well as for scientific study.
     
  10. jaymc

    jaymc Guest

    Believe it or not, but plants were alive before being eaten by the vegetarian. :rolleyes: 
     
  11. I have the outside around my house sprayed once a month. We virtually see no spiders or other pests in our house so I personally do not have to kill them.
     
  12. LOL, you're to funny Jonathan:smile:
     
  13. Gale

    Gale

    978
    Jan 26, 2005
    Viera Fl
    Insecticides kill more than bugs.

    I have to agree with Chris 101
     
  14. Interesting thread, now I think I will go slap a T-Bone on the Grill (BBQ):biggrin:
     
  15. RFCGRAPHICS

    RFCGRAPHICS

    Apr 30, 2005
    Yes

    So many balb-c mice bit the dust from my hands in the 80s. And today thanks to research animals we now have a cervical carcinoma vaccine.




    Regards


    RFC
     
  16. TechPan

    TechPan

    114
    Oct 5, 2006
    Los Angeles
    If god didn't want me to kill animals, why did she make them so tasty?
     
  17. Gr8Tr1x

    Gr8Tr1x Guest

    My favorite billboard is for a resturant called Saskatoon.

    'There's room for all God's creatures...right next to the mashed potatoes'.

    Something like that...
     
  18.  
  19. vettenut

    vettenut

    Feb 27, 2006
    Tolland CT
    I 'm not sure how I feel about this issue, Oh wait a minute..................

    60398556.

    Now what was I saying:biggrin: - Jeff
     
  20. Hey Harry (and Chris) -

    I just saw the top post, haven't read the responses, and share Harry's hope that this will not degenerate into a political or religious discussion, but I suspect that ultimately it must . . . unless one can separate those areas from science or philosophy.

    Nonetheless -

    I just picked up Douglas Hofstadter's new book "I am a Strange Loop" (he is the author of "Gödel, Escher, Bach", among others) , and I'm only up to p. 23 out of 412. I can't write a review yet - LOL.

    It raises exactly these types of questions, and I doubt whether it offers "answers", but a figure on p. 19 struck me as being relevant to the topic (at least that of the first post).

    The figure is a wide V-shape, and concludes a paragraph entitled "Where to Draw that Fateful, Fatal Line?"

    On the left, outside the "V", are three categories descending from top to bottom: "Lots of consciousness", "Less (but some) consciousness" and, approaching the bottom, "Little or no consciousness".

    Inside the "V", at the widest point, and descending to the vertex, are entries such as: "normal adult humans", "mentally retarded, brain-damaged, and senile humans", "dogs", "bunnies", "chickens", "goldfish", "bees", "mosquitoes", "mites", "microbes", "viruses", "atoms".

    Hofstadter stresses that this is his personal "cone", and that it is not meant to be either exact or broadly applicable to others, but it does raise a reductionist argument that seems important to me:

    Where does one "draw the line"?

    I think we each do this differently.

    Of course, I'm now all the way up to p. 23 (!), so I'm looking forward to getting to the rest of his book.

    I certainly don't fault you Harry, and I certainly appreciate both your photos and your subjects . . .

    Eric
     
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