*Italy and Coronavirus - READ IT*

[Jonathan F/2]

A major reason for those recommendations is probably the fact that we have a severe mask shortage relative to those countries and that, as Beagledog said above, our healthcare workers don't have enough of them. This is not a matter of wanting to protect healthcare workers for the sake of protecting healthcare workers. We want to protect them so they can keep working to protect others.

Korea, China, and other countries in Asia have a couple major differences from the US: 1) They make more masks in those countries and can choose what percentage to export. 2) They had significant experiences with SARS and MERS which helped them to be more ready for this pandemic.

I agree with you that if we had enough masks, it would be great for everyone to wear masks when out (in addition to staying home if sick and as much as possible otherwise).

Here's a FB post I made the other day saying much the same thing:

View attachment 1658059

My family made a trip to E. Asia last summer, so we had a small supply of masks available since it was quite normal to wear them in public over there. In fact when we came back to the US we arrived fully masked. We were stopped at customs processing saying we were in the wrong line, until I showed all our blue US passports!

I understand there's a shortage, but I'm seeing quite a bit of mask shaming going around instead of trying to normalize their usage. Just this weekend I saw families having playdates with their kids, young people still congregating in groups and others just going about their business as if nothing has happened. No one wearing masks or taking preventative measures seriously.

 

[Mike Buckley]

No one wearing masks or taking preventative measures seriously.

Neither my wife nor I are wearing masks out of concern that we believe they should be provided to the healthcare workers. However, we are taking every other reasonable measure of safety. My point is that one should not assume that the people such as my wife and me that aren't wearing masks are being reckless.

 

[Amin Sabet]

I understand there's a shortage, but I'm seeing quite a bit of mask shaming going around instead of trying to normalize their usage.

Again, that is because we don't have enough masks for our healthcare workers. I'm not saying that we should shame people for wearing a mask they already have. But they should be prioritized for healthcare use in this shortage.

Just this weekend I saw families having playdates with their kids, young people still congregating in groups and others just going about their business as if nothing has happened. No one wearing masks or taking preventative measures seriously.

The main problem with what you describe is not the lack of masks. It's the lack of social distancing.

 

[Growltiger]

This report is interesting. It is the official report into the early COVID-19 findings in the UK.
https://www.icnarc.org/DataServices/Attachments/Download/b5f59585-5870-ea11-9124-00505601089b
On page 7 you will see that about half of the 165 who went into ICU died.

On page 4 you will see that only about 20% of those who get pneumonia (5755 cases) have severe comorbidities.
This is interesting as we keep being told that the prople who die are old or have health conditions.

Page 5 figure 4 has a chart showing age of those critically ill. Lots of cases in their 40's 50's and 60's. Far more men than women.

 

[Amin Sabet]

Neither my wife nor I are wearing masks out of concern that we believe they should be provided to the healthcare workers. However, we are taking every other reasonable measure of safety. My point is that one should not assume that the people such as my wife and me that aren't wearing masks are being reckless.

I don't think it's wrong to wear a mask. I do think it's wrong to have a stockpile of masks with our national shortage.

From a public health standpoint, masks do three things: First, they prevent you from sending your droplets flying everywhere if you are infected and cough or sneeze. Second, they prevent other people's droplets from hitting the covered parts of your face. This is generally unnecessary if you are doing appropriate distancing, and it is not protective enough if you aren't distancing. Third, they discourage you from touching your face.

With regards to those things, a mask or equivalent (non medical cloth mask, scarf, bandana) may be reasonable for the trips to the grocery store, etc.

 

[TomP]

I don't think it's wrong to wear a mask. I do think it's wrong to have a stockpile of masks.

From a public health standpoint, masks do three things: First, they prevent you from sending your droplets flying everywhere if you are infected and cough or sneeze. Second, they prevent other people's droplets from hitting the covered parts of your face. This is generally unnecessary if you are doing appropriate distancing and not protective enough if you aren't distancing. Third, they discourage you from touching your face.

With regards to those things, a mask or equivalent (non medical cloth mask, scarf, bandana) may be reasonable for the trips to the grocery store, etc.

We are using our surgical mask, the flat type, leftover from our previous medical issues, to prevent face touching when we HAVE to go out. Be careful out there.

 

[Amin Sabet]

On page 4 you will see that only about 20% of those who get pneumonia (5755 cases) have severe comorbidities.
This is interesting as we keep being told that the prople who die are old or have health conditions.

Those 5755 cases are from a comparator group of people who had critical illness due to pneumonia caused by viral pneumonia other than COVID-19. They are a historical control group from 2017-2019 who had infections not due to SARS-CoV-2.

Amongst the 732 patients who were critically ill due to COVID-19 who had information about comorbidities available, only 8.7% had known "very severe comorbidities".

Two things to note about that: 1) They are only including critically ill patients. The percentage is no doubt different (lower or higher) for the entire cohort of COVID-19 pneumonia patients requiring hospitalization, many of whom are not critically ill. 2) Their definition of "very severe" is pretty strict. Just having COPD, coronary artery disease, diabetes, or obesity doesn't meet their definition.

So when we hear that most people who get very sick and/or die from COVID-19 are older and/or have comorbidities, that is probably including a lot of comorbidities beyond what they included in that report.

 

[MiriamJ]

Just to clarify, I'm not talking about chloroquine, hydrochloroquine, chloroquine diphosphate or quinine tablets. I am discussing quinine, issued to healthy soldiers to keep them healthy for at least 200 years. That quinine is liquid, and can be bought over the counter in the United States in a bottle with a dropper.

Yes, you can find rare side effects on webmd.com. Some people are allergic to sunlight and have side effects from that. For me the benefits outweigh the danger.

 

[TomP]

]

Just from a quick search, Quinine is sold over the counter. There's no harm having a bottle if needed. At the very least being home quarantined might result in muscle cramps from not being active!

Jonathan, during our 3-year dual cancer odyssey, my wife suffered from severe cramps. I asked my pharmacist about Quinine ,and was told it was not sold as such and she could be poisoned by its use.

 

[Amin Sabet]

Just to clarify, I'm not talking about chloroquine, hydrochloroquine, chloroquine diphosphate or quinine tablets. I am discussing quinine, issued to healthy soldiers to keep them healthy for at least 200 years. That quinine is liquid, and can be bought over the counter in the United States in a bottle with a dropper.

You mean a supplement like this one?

https://www.amazon.com/Alcohol-Free-Cinchona-officinalis-Tincture-Supplement/dp/B078P45GN2

If so, the amount of quinine in that is very low. The serving size on that label says that a serving of 30 drops contains about 680mg of cichona bark. As far as I can find online, cinchona bark is about 5-7% quinine, so a serving of those drops would have about as much quinine as about half a liter of tonic water.

That is assuming that the label is correct, which is not a safe assumption in the unregulated supplement industry.

 

[MiriamJ]

You mean a supplement like this one?

https://www.amazon.com/Alcohol-Free-Cinchona-officinalis-Tincture-Supplement/dp/B078P45GN2

If so, the amount of quinine in that is very low. The serving size on that label says that a serving of 30 drops contains about 680mg of cichona bark. As far as I can find online, cinchona bark is about 5-7% quinine, so a serving of those drops would have about as much quinine as about half a liter of tonic water.

That is assuming that the label is correct, which is not a safe assumption in the unregulated supplement industry.

Yes, actually that is what we are taking. We take 30 drops, 3 times a day. So, using your figures, we are doing the equivalent of drinking 1 1/2 liters of tonic water per person per day, but without all that much water.

I note it's a cMGP laboratory. From the FDA website: "CGMP refers to the Current Good Manufacturing Practice regulations enforced by the FDA. CGMPs provide for systems that assure proper design, monitoring, and control of manufacturing processes and facilities. Adherence to the CGMP regulations assures the identity, strength, quality, and purity of drug products"

So I would trust the label.

 

[Desmond]

Just looking up some numbers, of course the results could be vastly different, lots of "ifs" and "buts" but here goes:
Apparently the Spanish flu got its name because they were the only ones really honest about the results, let's not have this be called the Italian flu.
At least 17 million died from it, some say more like 50 million, some say possibly 100 million. Taking the average of 50 million and assuming the current half hearted money motivated approach to lockdowns and the fact that some think this may be worse than the Spanish flu: Back then the population was 1.8 billion, today it is 4 times that which could mean a death toll of 200 million over perhaps two years.

 

[Clix Pix]

One thing which many people probably have not thought about when it comes to the idea of everyone suddenly sporting masks is that this could result in being (another) barrier to communication for those in the population who partially or wholly depend upon lip-reading for communication with others. While many people who are profoundly deaf use sign language, there are a lot of hearing-impaired people who are somewhere in-between normal hearing and being profoundly deaf, for whom lip-reading often serves as an adjunct aid when talking with others or following what is being said in a conversation. Years ago, before I had the bone-anchored hearing aids I wear now, I was definitely one of those people. I had learned to lip-read as a small child when I was at a school for the hearing-impaired which focused on the "oral method" and taught and encouraged the use of speech on the part of the affected person as well as reading speech on the lips of others. It's not 100% reliable, as many words can look the same or very similar on the lips, but it is a way of supplementing one's own poor hearing. I instinctively relied on lip-reading for years and to a certain extent I still do, but not in the way I did earlier. I know others, though, who really do depend on lip-reading as a way of helping them communicate with family, friends and strangers.

While I definitely agree that the use of masks could and most likely would be very effective in reducing the overall impact and spread of this nasty COVID-19, and am not saying that we shouldn't do this, I also am just thinking about those for whom communication with others is already a struggle and how this -- everyone covering mouth and nose -- could make that even more challenging for them. That said, right now everything is pretty challenging for everyone, anyway, isn't it?!

 

[atlanta_man]

There's now a list of FDA rules for manufacturing masks on the internet. Lots of tests that must compare the new ones to existing ones on the market. Flammability, etc.
No doubt they will waive those rules. Or not. Logic does not always prevail.

Hard to believe that in the U.S., NIH, CDC, and FDA have not had more successes with this outbreak.

 

[atlanta_man]

You mean a supplement like this one?

https://www.amazon.com/Alcohol-Free-Cinchona-officinalis-Tincture-Supplement/dp/B078P45GN2

If so, the amount of quinine in that is very low. The serving size on that label says that a serving of 30 drops contains about 680mg of cichona bark. As far as I can find online, cinchona bark is about 5-7% quinine, so a serving of those drops would have about as much quinine as about half a liter of tonic water.

That is assuming that the label is correct, which is not a safe assumption in the unregulated supplement industry.

"Currently unavailable" surprise !

 

[Jonathan F/2]

I just want to clarify, I don't endorse using any drugs without a proper prescription. Saying that, I'm big believer of proactive prevention and awareness. Every night my wife and I disinfect all surfaces, door handles and floors in our home. No shoes are allowed inside. We limit store and food pick-up runs to only one adult. All clothes that were exposed to areas of possible infection get washed immediately. We take daily showers and everyone washes their hands every hour at home and immediately if having gone outside. I also wear 3M anti-fog safety glasses when outdoors, because my spring allergies are flaring up and it keeps me from rubbing my eyes and also prevents possible moisture particles away from my eyes. My glasses, smartphone, keys and credit/debit card that were used in-store also get disinfected.

In regards to masks, people are starting to sew/craft their own and filtration material is readily available. There's no need to use anti-viral grade masks for non-medical professional use unless you're in a high risk environment. We have washable masks and we use replaceable filter inserts that can easily be purchased online. Food-wise, I'll probably be transitioning to steaming vegetables as another preventative measure. I also have a rain suit and waterproof shoes if things get worst and I'll have my kids hose me down after every store run. Looking at the stats and continued rate of infection, this is an extreme virus and I think it needs an extreme response to deter continued infection.

Just like anything in life, if you want to win (this outbreak) you need to make the sacrifices necessary to succeed. I still want to swim in the salty waters of the Andaman Sea, while drinking a coconut smoothie and eating BBQ tiger prawns on-a-stick! If you set a goal, it makes the grind easier!

 

[7006]

Just received delivery of our karcher steamer to add to all the measures we take.
Steam clean floors and surfaces twice a day now.

 

[Phil K]

Masks are important in Asia as a social distancing measure as we live in very densely populated cities and rely on public transports. It is impossible to keep a distance from others unless you don't go out. Masks provide the barrier.

 

[Palouse]

Just got this from a friend.

https://www.stereogum.com/2078485/john-prine-coronavirus-hospital-critical/news/

 

[Clix Pix]

We need a "sad" icon...... This is distressing news.