Your thoughts.
Nikon Flagship MLS in 2021
- Thread starter cybertec69
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Nikon needs this to work!
All he talks about is video.......barely mentioning auto focusing at the end.... However, if it is truly a D6 replacement..... I'd be interested ............if they have 500/600mm lenses available for it.
I doubt it's a D6 replacement, more like a D850 replacement in MLS form with 8K and a few other new features that their rivals lack. In regards to telephoto Z lenses, they will be coming according to their Z lens road map.
The referenced DP review info was also published on Nikon Rumors yesterday. Along with a bunch of "remember I told you so" stuff. Is it just me or is the Nikon Rumors guy kind of paranoid about not getting his share of credit/clicks?
Interesting that they present it as a D6 replacement in mirrorless. As Karen mentioned to me that implies that they have solved the focus issues and EVF blackout/freezeframe. They mention that it will employ a stacked sensor so maybe that's how they're getting there. But only for the flagship level body?
Interesting that they present it as a D6 replacement in mirrorless. As Karen mentioned to me that implies that they have solved the focus issues and EVF blackout/freezeframe. They mention that it will employ a stacked sensor so maybe that's how they're getting there. But only for the flagship level body?
I think the reason for this new sensor design being implemented only in a new flagship camera is to recoup as much as possible in regards to R&D costs, and down the line will most likely be used in pro summer bodies with less bells and whistles. But that's just my guess.
In regards to it being a D6 replacement, I doubt it very much, it would lack the high ISO capabilities that the D5/D6 offer. There is a reason why the D5/D6 have only a 20mp sensors. Same with the Sony A9ii/A9, and Canon EOS-1D X Mark II all have 20mp size sensors.
This is why the D500 and the D5/D6 have the same 20mp sensor, do to the D5/D6 having a FF sensor they are able to expand the pixel size of each pixel, which in the end gathers more light "RGB", more light =less noise. This is why the D850 and the D500 are pretty much on the same level when it comes to noise, the only thing the D850 has over the D500 is more pixels, the same size pixels that are on the D500 cropped sensor are on the bigger D850 FF size sensor. The D850 and the D5/D6 have the same size FF sensor, for them to increase the pixel size of the D5/D6 and implement them on the same FF size sensor "example 45 megapixel D850" it would not be possible, it means the sensor size itself would have to increase, and now you are going to medium format category.
And to be able to push all those megapixels with the pixel pitch of the D5/D6 you would need lots of computing power. This is why medium format cameras are slow as molasses and are primarily used for studio applications and landscape.
This is also the reason why the D750/D780/Z6/Z6ii have higher ISO ranges than the D850/Z7/Z7ii, they all use the same size FF sensor, but since the D750/D780/Z6/Z6ii use less pixels, they are able to expand the size of the pixels which means more light gathering capabilities, which means less noise.
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I'm afraid that video didn't tell me much at all, further no indication of when this camera might become available other than saying this year. Sorry.
By the time it is released people will already have been happily using Sony's flagship A1 for months, and whatever the new Canon flagship is called..... It is encouraging, though, that they're still trying, still in the game and haven't tossed in the towel......
I have no doubt Nikon will release a marvelous camera.
It may be a little late, but they will get there.
I am afraid we are looking at the wrong problem.
The cameras are so good they are nearly magical. All of them. Nikon, canon, sony. Magical. There will be little to no differences.
Lenses are also getting so good they are difficult to tell apart.
The next "war" (IMHO) will be computational.
Nikon is a camera company. Their attempts at software so far have been somewhat abysmal.
Canon is a diverse company that makes cameras.
Sony is a diverse company that has a strong computational branch, that also makes cameras.
I suspect sony is in the best position to interface between camera/cellphone/AI/computer.
Imho whoever does this first/best will win.
Nikon will not lose the battle because of its cameras, or its lenses.
It could lose the battle if it cannot get the computational components under control.
gary
It may be a little late, but they will get there.
I am afraid we are looking at the wrong problem.
The cameras are so good they are nearly magical. All of them. Nikon, canon, sony. Magical. There will be little to no differences.
Lenses are also getting so good they are difficult to tell apart.
The next "war" (IMHO) will be computational.
Nikon is a camera company. Their attempts at software so far have been somewhat abysmal.
Canon is a diverse company that makes cameras.
Sony is a diverse company that has a strong computational branch, that also makes cameras.
I suspect sony is in the best position to interface between camera/cellphone/AI/computer.
Imho whoever does this first/best will win.
Nikon will not lose the battle because of its cameras, or its lenses.
It could lose the battle if it cannot get the computational components under control.
gary
Sorry, but Sony might be good with software, but their hardware stinks, their cameras ergonomics are horrendous, as are their menus and their color science, Canon has good ergonomics and a good menu, software is good, color science is good but too flat for MY taste. When it comes to glass, Sony is not even up to par with Sigma, and their glass is overpriced, which is the norm with Sony and pretty much all their electronics, they spend a lot of money on glitzy advertising like Apple to sell you a sub-par product "and yes Apple products are OVERPRICED for what they offer", including greasing all their youtube influencers. Canon and Nikon glass is fantastic, especially the new Nikon Z mount lenses, everyone raves about the new Nikon Z mount glass, and at the end of the day, it's all about the glass attached to the camera. Nikon's ergonomics are excellent as is the menu interface. Also Nikon's color science is in a league of their own.
What's this computational nonsense, every camera does some type of computation to produce the image that is captured, that's why their main boards are compromised of silicon like Nikon's expeed, the name Nikon gave it, and Digic for Canon.
Sorry but when cameras start taking pictures all by themselves, that's when the art of photography is DEAD in my book.
I used my friends Sony A9ii, it was a horrendous experience.
Also from past experiences with Sony, they could care less about their customers, remember they are an electronics company first.
There is a reason why Nikon and Canon have endured, they are imaging companies first and foremost. Their imaging products have been used and tested by hobbyists professionals and pro-summers for decades, millions of them. Don't be fooled by this youtube craze nonsense, everyone and their grandmother thinks they will become the next youtube sensation. Personally I have unsubscribed from many of those channels, sometimes I wonder if these people do any photography at all.
I and millions of people still shoot with the D500, the camera did not stop taking great images because the calendar year says 2021.
1. D500 cropped
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2. D500 cropped
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This picture was taken with the D850 and Nikon 70-200VR2.8. A lens that came out twenty years ago.
https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product-archive/camera-lenses/af-s-vr-zoom-nikkor-70-200mm-f%2f2.8g-if-ed.html
1. Cropped
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2. Cropped
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John, looks like we can agree to disagree.
Those are pretty pictures with the d850. I took thousands with my d850 as well. I have also taken thousands with my sony equipment.
I do not see any comment where anyone said our older equipment would quit taking great images. I still use my d850, so I hope it keeps working.
I am always amazed how adamant we support whatever equipment we have chosen. In my other hobbies, like bike racing, no one really cares what equipment we use. We care about the outcome.
I wonder if painters argue over brushes? I doubt it.
I have shot nikon for 40years. Loved it. Great equipment. Owned a lot of it- all the super primes except the 600. Owned the 200mm, 300, 400, 500mm. Great glass.
For medical/vision reasons I had to move to mirrorless. I could adjust the viewfinder to be bright enough I could see better. I looked hard at nikon mirrorless- at the time they did not fulfill my needs. (2019)
Looked at Sony and they had what I wanted. I jumped in with both feet. For 2months I was ready to throw the stuff in the lake. Then I got used to it.
I have small hands, the sony fits me even better than the d4 or d850. Once you get used to the menus they only suck a little, and once the camera is set up you rarely go there.
The glass is fine. Some tests even better than the nikon glass, although I don't shoot tests. They have some great lenses, and some not so great. Just like nikon.
I can truly understand how grabbing your friends a9 was uncomfortable. Shoot with it for a month, study it, it is a pretty nice camera. Give him your d850, he is probably saying the same thing.
I was concerned about how my work would change while switching systems. I was surprised. I hang in a couple of gallery's around town. No one noticed any change. No one.
I just sold 9 large pieces. All 20x30" or larger, the 2 largest were over 6feet long. They were a mix of nikon and sony images. No one can tell. Maybe you can tell- no one else can. I have asked.
I can not comment on Sony service- as luckily I have not needed it yet. I am on the Sonypro list and their service is supposed to be pretty good. 3day turnaround or they give me a loner. My gear has gotten wet and dirty, so far holding up fine.
Nikon service, in my experience, was absolutely AWFUL. I ended up using a private repair service even on my nikon warranty needs. Worst experiences I ever had.
Basically, I do not care what equipment you shoot with.
I look at prints, I do not really care what they look like blown up to pixel peeping sizes on the monitor.
I do not shoot brick walls, so absolute lens detail is not something I look for in a print.
I do not look at prints with a loupe.
I was lucky enough to have worked with Jay Maisel for several weeks. He changed my photography
He had a saying which I am paraphrasing:
"I don't care about the pixels, I care about the picture."
That simple line changed how I thought about gear, and how I shot.
As I said earlier I hope and expect the next nikon camera to be terrific.
Just like I expect the next sony to be terrific- yes I am high on the list for the a1, which should hopefully arrive soon.
Canon will also produce a great camera.
None of this will change our work.
All the great artists in the past shot with equipment much more primitive than anything I own. Our equipment is not holding us back.
Go shoot more. It is a great time to be a photographer.
gary
Those are pretty pictures with the d850. I took thousands with my d850 as well. I have also taken thousands with my sony equipment.
I do not see any comment where anyone said our older equipment would quit taking great images. I still use my d850, so I hope it keeps working.
I am always amazed how adamant we support whatever equipment we have chosen. In my other hobbies, like bike racing, no one really cares what equipment we use. We care about the outcome.
I wonder if painters argue over brushes? I doubt it.
I have shot nikon for 40years. Loved it. Great equipment. Owned a lot of it- all the super primes except the 600. Owned the 200mm, 300, 400, 500mm. Great glass.
For medical/vision reasons I had to move to mirrorless. I could adjust the viewfinder to be bright enough I could see better. I looked hard at nikon mirrorless- at the time they did not fulfill my needs. (2019)
Looked at Sony and they had what I wanted. I jumped in with both feet. For 2months I was ready to throw the stuff in the lake. Then I got used to it.
I have small hands, the sony fits me even better than the d4 or d850. Once you get used to the menus they only suck a little, and once the camera is set up you rarely go there.
The glass is fine. Some tests even better than the nikon glass, although I don't shoot tests. They have some great lenses, and some not so great. Just like nikon.
I can truly understand how grabbing your friends a9 was uncomfortable. Shoot with it for a month, study it, it is a pretty nice camera. Give him your d850, he is probably saying the same thing.
I was concerned about how my work would change while switching systems. I was surprised. I hang in a couple of gallery's around town. No one noticed any change. No one.
I just sold 9 large pieces. All 20x30" or larger, the 2 largest were over 6feet long. They were a mix of nikon and sony images. No one can tell. Maybe you can tell- no one else can. I have asked.
I can not comment on Sony service- as luckily I have not needed it yet. I am on the Sonypro list and their service is supposed to be pretty good. 3day turnaround or they give me a loner. My gear has gotten wet and dirty, so far holding up fine.
Nikon service, in my experience, was absolutely AWFUL. I ended up using a private repair service even on my nikon warranty needs. Worst experiences I ever had.
Basically, I do not care what equipment you shoot with.
I look at prints, I do not really care what they look like blown up to pixel peeping sizes on the monitor.
I do not shoot brick walls, so absolute lens detail is not something I look for in a print.
I do not look at prints with a loupe.
I was lucky enough to have worked with Jay Maisel for several weeks. He changed my photography
He had a saying which I am paraphrasing:
"I don't care about the pixels, I care about the picture."
That simple line changed how I thought about gear, and how I shot.
As I said earlier I hope and expect the next nikon camera to be terrific.
Just like I expect the next sony to be terrific- yes I am high on the list for the a1, which should hopefully arrive soon.
Canon will also produce a great camera.
None of this will change our work.
All the great artists in the past shot with equipment much more primitive than anything I own. Our equipment is not holding us back.
Go shoot more. It is a great time to be a photographer.
gary
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I think you hit the nail on the head, Gary. The things that Nikon still does better than others is their ergonomics. Because they are a camera company. Though they design for pros not consumers. Seemingly even more so now. Regarding the computational aspect, I think it goes well beyond the issues of interfacing with other devices. Look what being done with cell phone images. Portrait mode with computationally generated bokeh, much improved algorithms for digital zoom, etc. For consumer level photography those things are hits. Cell phones are still and will always be limited by optics. Seems like there would be a consumer market for marrying the two.
No, I didn't dislike anything.
I did disagree with your opinion sony "hardware stinks".
I did disagree with your opinion that sony glass is subpar and overpriced.
I did disagree with your opinion that sony color science is horrendous.
As I originally said I suspect the nikon system to mature and they will make a great camera.
But that may no longer be enough.
There are not enough "pros" and "artists" to keep these companies afloat.
They need the hobby shooters.
Home audio went through the same growth. The equipment got so good they all sounded great, so they had to market the interface.
Now that the camera systems are all so good, the cameras and lenses will not be what separate the competition. IMHO it will be the software/interface.
And at least so far, nikon has not done well in that category.
gary
I did disagree with your opinion sony "hardware stinks".
I did disagree with your opinion that sony glass is subpar and overpriced.
I did disagree with your opinion that sony color science is horrendous.
As I originally said I suspect the nikon system to mature and they will make a great camera.
But that may no longer be enough.
There are not enough "pros" and "artists" to keep these companies afloat.
They need the hobby shooters.
Home audio went through the same growth. The equipment got so good they all sounded great, so they had to market the interface.
Now that the camera systems are all so good, the cameras and lenses will not be what separate the competition. IMHO it will be the software/interface.
And at least so far, nikon has not done well in that category.
gary
Sony hardware stinks, I am not the only one that thinks this, as is its user interface. I have used my friends A9ii, it was a horrendous experience coming from using a Nikon. If you covered both cameras name and handed them both to a random person "someone that at least had used a camera before" they would come to the same conclusion.
Sorry but mass advertising gibberish does not influence me or my wallet.
And in regards to the color science, I am not the only one. Go check out youtube where Sony people are trying to mimick Nikon's and Canon's colors. At the end of the day that is what you are looking at, not some artificial intelligence that helped you capture the image.
Like I said, you did not like the taste of your own medicine.
I guess I am too slow, I really did not disagree or get upset with anything- I just disagreed with your opinions.
I do not listen to the you tube people.
When I was a nikon shooter, there was a group that did not like nikon color and tried to emulate canon colors. Nothing has changed.
Yes the sony color is different, not worse just different. Just like nikon it changes even with different glass.
I am not doing product photography where I am trying to match colors. I do mostly nature and wildlife. My colors are fine, and no one has noticed a change in my color work as I moved from nikon to sony. No one.
My portrait colors also have not noticeably changed. I can only go by my 18months of experience with this equipment.
The sony menu system was frustrating for a while, so I learned it. It is fine now. I no longer think about it.
I am glad you are so sure sony hardware stinks, it's color stinks, it's lenses stink and it's ergonomics stink because you shot with an a9 for a couple of minutes and watch you tube videos.
But, I will stick with my original basic argument which was:
Nikon will continue to make great cameras, as will the other main competitors.
But that may not be where the next war occurs.
gary
The next war. I don't waste my time with the next war nonsense.
I shot with Nikon for many, many years. Yes, the ergonomics were great, the lenses were wonderful, the SLR and then the DSLR camera bodies kept getting better-and-better....
I never waste time watching YouTube so-called "influencers" or self-anointed "reviewers" and I rarely watch television so I never have seen a Sony advertisement. Don't buy or read many magazines, so if they do print ads I've never seen those, either. I came to Sony through a fellow Nikon fan who introduced me to his NEX-7 and that was my first exposure to mirrorless. I liked it, I bought a NEX-7 and bought some other Sony cameras along the way and then in late 2019 made the big switch from Nikon to Sony full-frame. There were several reasons for that but a major one was (and still is) that Nikon did not have the lenses I wanted and they still don't. In the year-and-a-half that I've been shooting Sony I've been very happy with the native lenses which fill my needs and desires and have given me great pleasure in shooting the kinds of images I like to shoot. For me Nikon was too late to the mirrorless game.
I never waste time watching YouTube so-called "influencers" or self-anointed "reviewers" and I rarely watch television so I never have seen a Sony advertisement. Don't buy or read many magazines, so if they do print ads I've never seen those, either. I came to Sony through a fellow Nikon fan who introduced me to his NEX-7 and that was my first exposure to mirrorless. I liked it, I bought a NEX-7 and bought some other Sony cameras along the way and then in late 2019 made the big switch from Nikon to Sony full-frame. There were several reasons for that but a major one was (and still is) that Nikon did not have the lenses I wanted and they still don't. In the year-and-a-half that I've been shooting Sony I've been very happy with the native lenses which fill my needs and desires and have given me great pleasure in shooting the kinds of images I like to shoot. For me Nikon was too late to the mirrorless game.
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A great photographer will get great results with Nikon, Canon or Sony gear. Regarding color, much of that can be managed in post. Regardless of which of these brands one chooses, it would be the rare exception if the brand was the reason one isn't able to create quality images.
I refuse to bash any of these brands. I would be happy with any of them. For now, I'm a Nikon shooter--mostly because I have built up a lot of Nikon gear (lenses, flash units, etc.) over the years. I'm happy with Nikon, but would probably be happy with Sony or Canon as well. My first camera was a Canon AE-1...and I was thrilled with that!
Glenn
I refuse to bash any of these brands. I would be happy with any of them. For now, I'm a Nikon shooter--mostly because I have built up a lot of Nikon gear (lenses, flash units, etc.) over the years. I'm happy with Nikon, but would probably be happy with Sony or Canon as well. My first camera was a Canon AE-1...and I was thrilled with that!
Glenn
I agree on the all are fine, even if not a great photographer. I was shopping to replace two Canon DLSRs (20D and 7D) and lenses with mirrorless. A main decision for us (my son and I share the gear) was ergonomics. The Nikon Z6 just felt right in our hands compared to the others. We planned to sell all the old Canon equipment, so there was no legacy glass to influence what we chose.
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