PHil askey's response to my emails about trolls.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Backdoctor, Feb 16, 2005.

  1. here are two emails I got from phil after sending emails on trolls. Guess they wont miss me there:

    second one:
    Are you finally leaving then? Because you got one big attitude problem. See my last email.

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Backdoctor [mailto:Backdoctor@prodigy.net]
    > Sent: 16 February 2005 15:10
    > To: feedback@dpreview.com
    > Subject: DPR Feedback: Admin (feedback-forums_complaint)
    >
    > Comments:
    >
    > Phil.
    >
    > This is why many of the regular nikon folks dont come anymore:
    > http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=12272269
    >
    > I have loved your forum and site for years. Unfortunately it
    > has changed and not for the better. I hope you consider
    > moderators before you lose all the folks that made it a great place.
    >
    > Sad.
    >
    > Harris

    the first:
    No he's just a boring old troll, they exist everywhere on the net and we can't mind-read, we can only remove and ban when you let us know about it.

    It's not brain surgery.

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Backdoctor [mailto:backdoctor@prodigy.net]
    > Sent: 16 February 2005 15:29
    > To: feedback@dpreview.com
    > Subject: DPR Feedback: Admin (feedback-forums_complaint)
    >
    > Comments:
    >
    > another reason dozens of folks go to other sites.
    >
    > http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=12273653
    >
    > why do you allow these trolls? Its sad and pathetic. The
    > nikon forum is no longer a fun and interesting place to be.
    >
    > Harris
    >

    Phil, he can kiss my @skey!

    last time I'll help that british prick
     
  2. Larry Gleason

    Larry Gleason

    373
    Jan 26, 2005
    Sounds like Phil is a little frustrated himself but those are not appropriate responses to someone trying to help clean the place up. For all the forum complaints I have written, a response like that would tick me off too.
     
  3. peterdove

    peterdove Guest

    Wow, I am amazed you got a response, I emailed the guy offering to buy advertising several times and got no reponse.

    Peter
     
  4. Flew

    Flew

    994
    Jan 25, 2005
    Alabama
    I emailed him the day we created this forum and asked if we could put a link to DPR. Never got a response to that one either. :?

    I don't want to bash Phil too hard. I still consider DPR to be one of the best sites on the web in terms of technical excellence, and the reviews are second to none. I think it has just gotten too big to manage from a practical standpoint, and it sounds like he's getting frustrated too. :evil:

    It is a shame.

    Frank
     
  5. DP Review

    Actually DP Review is no big deal. When you analyse it, all it really has is critical mass in terms of marketing and the number of users. And it looks good.

    The reviews are very measurebatory in nature, they are not really based on in the field experience, and there is never any comparison of the printed product. Yeah, technically good, but on paper some cars look really good but they are awful to drive. I don't set too much store in Phil's reviews quite frankly, and he seems to have his own unique set of biases.

    As for the forums, well, they are entirely anarchic and out of control to say the least. I suspect that Phil will allow that to continue because his revenue is clearly based on advertising and hence quantity of visits rather quality. His responses, and the judgement he applies in writing them is surly and take-it or leave-it to say the least.

    It's a bit like the Blade Runner or Mad Max with cameras over there.

    Just let's not have it occupy too much of our time, or spread across here like the contaminating virus that it is.
     
  6. PGB

    PGB

    Jan 25, 2005
    From a business standpoint its all about "click throughs." It doesn't matter if there are a thousand troll posts his advertisers look at what kind of traffic the sites have. Banner ads sell. I use them for my Amateur Radio dealership and they are a great medium.

    The only downside to all of the above is that people that really buy stuff and don't ***** at people are the ones that leave. Before you know it, a site can become trashed.

    I hope that doesn't happen over there and if Phil has any sense, and I bet he does, he will protect his investment somehow.

    Thanks,
     

  7. Well you got quite an attitude problem from what I see mister .... lol
     
  8. Iliah

    Iliah

    Jan 29, 2005
    nowhere
    I'm afraid if we will continue discussing DPR here, we need to change the name to "DPRsometning" :)
     
  9. PGB

    PGB

    Jan 25, 2005
    I'm with you Iliah! I would much rather talk about RawMagick.

    Thanks,
     
  10. Gale

    Gale

    978
    Jan 26, 2005
    Viera Fl
    Yo Patrick,

    73's OM

    WP2AAK

    CQ, CQ CQ.

    Regards
    Gale
     
  11. Gale

    Gale

    978
    Jan 26, 2005
    Viera Fl
    Iliah and Peter,

    I would also like to see alot more of rawmagick discussed over here..

    Regards
    Gale
     
  12. PJohnP

    PJohnP

    Feb 5, 2005
    Well, as someone who has worked as a sysop for fora, I can speak about this with a trifle of knowledge.

    Firstly, the "clickthroughs" are critical for adverts on a site. Sites live and die on advertising. Others have noted this, but here's a different and somewhat disturbing insight on that aspect...

    Some fora owners or sysops will deliberately plant seeder posts to start a good flame war when traffic is low. Never did it myself, but it's a dirty little secret in the biz. Better to have flame wars blowing up all over a forum than a slow forum with no clickthroughs. At least, from an advertising perspective. Can't say that Phil Askey would ever do that, but if the traffic's high and generating advertising, there's certainly a negative aspect to clamping down hard on the trolls.

    Secondly, moderating a forum requires a lot of time. Successfully moderating a forum requires more time. Depending on the number of staff available, this becomes untenable with respect to trolls.

    A great forum finds a balance between trolls and dedicated members, but the equation for this has shifted considerably. Most of the dedicated members of a forum are (usually) full-time employed or have other rich lives outside of cyberspace. More and more, the trolls are full-time denizens of cyberspace, allowing them to post five or ten times the traffic of the dedicated (more sane) members of a forum.

    "Peer pressure" only works when the peers can exert real pressure. In cyberspace, this is is wholly ineffective. Gresham's Law starts to exert an inexorable force, and the congenial regulars leave in disgust. Where netiquette issues could be cited even several years past in a forum, that's simply not working any longer.

    And so trolls dominate a forum.

    One solution to this is "deputizing" several people to act as forum or sub-forum sysops, delegating the power to "bozo" or "elf" trolls as needed. In practice, a forum needs a section leader/sub-forum sysop for about every few hundred posts per day. If the forum's infested with trolls, that number drops considerably until a balance is restored.

    But this also requires fast lockouts or elfing without hesitation. Given the international nature of DPR, that would require sub-sysops in different time-zones who could issue quick and sharp rebukes for failures. Look, for example, at how quickly Fred Miranda's folks step in for issues, all the time working quite fairly and smoothly (in my reading of these things at least). But FM doesn't have near the number of posts of DPR.

    I feel for Phil Askey in one sense, because he has had perhaps the best overall digital camera forum going for so long. In another sense, and as a person who has managed programs involving thousands of people, I firmly believe that it is the site owner/manager's job to step in and mantain an even tenor for a forum. Phil's not hitting that ball on the flat of the bat these days (warning - cricket metaphor).

    The challenge for this forum, IMNHO, is to keep the collegial atmosphere running while still attracting some creative and technically adept members to participate. We're doing pretty well on the friendly atmosphere, and gradually adding the members, but the balance will be important in the future. IMNHO, that is.



    John P.
     
  13. Gale

    Gale

    978
    Jan 26, 2005
    Viera Fl
    TO ALL,

    Remember that is where we all met. Alot of us on
    NTF, then to the DSLR..
    We had alot of fun and learned alot.
    We are all still together.
    Had it not been for DPR there would not have been RR session or the one we will have in a couple days.

    Yes I am sorry to see how it is now.

    Now we have a new home. Just like it used to be.

    Regards
    Gale
     
  14. Flew

    Flew

    994
    Jan 25, 2005
    Alabama
    Well said Gale.... :wink:

     
  15. Gale

    Gale

    978
    Jan 26, 2005
    Viera Fl
    Thank You Frank

    Best Regards
    Gale
     
  16. NeilCam

    NeilCam

    609
    Feb 21, 2005
    Ottawa, Ontario
    Brilliant analysis John P and only re-emphasize your statement ""Peer pressure" only works when the peers can exert real pressure. In cyberspace, this is is wholly ineffective."

    As you also pointed out the DPReview fora are archaic - aside from the layout, as someone who hits enter too easily before rereading, the inability to edit drives me nuts.

    Oh and well said Gale.

    Anyway, I'm glad to be here!!
    /me waves hello to everybodies.

    Neil
     
  17. A very RARE moment of "Serious"

    overcomes Mr. Smart-A Dewey.

    I belong to moderated fora such as Rob Galbraith, unmoderated such as DPR and Fred Miranda and very tightly controlled and moderated list mailer, all revolving around Digital Photography. One thing has been common to all, over time someone shows up and slings crap, the only difference is how effectively they can be stomped.

    This forum is growing, and that is good. I already cannot keep up with the traffic, which is great. Having been very busy over the past week and a half I am way behind, and I know I'm going to miss a bunch of super stuff.

    The growth, however, needs to be managed, and that is something that only we can do. I am honored that some of the early folks here thought well enough of me to send me an invite, and in keeping with that I attempt to be very selective in who I invite. This is NOT meant to indicate that I am "elitist", just that I am very concerned, and think we all should be, about where and how this forum will grow. The last thing I want is for Frank and Patrick to have to spend the time to moderate, that is a real pain in the butt for sure.

    I guess my only point in all of this is that the Nikon Cafe is only going to be as good as those who are members. I think of this as being able to actually pick my neighbors, with an eye toward who they will pick to join the neighborhood as well. This place is fun, the images are stunning, it is a new place and I am already learning. Let's all keep it that way, a small bit of self-policing will go a very long way.

    Thanks, Patrick and Frank, I promise I won't be this serious very often.
     
  18. Hi Harris,

    I am sorry to hear that Phil has you down. It is sad that DPR has become pretty much of a troll forum so let's hope the trolls don't find us because that would be a real nightmare.

    I don't understand why he puts the rules on the site if he doesn't care about the complaining of the trolls. I have seen him banned others for no good reason but lets the trolls continue trolling. I guess we will never know the answer to that one.

    Remember what Gale said, we have a real nice home here and even Phil can't ban us from here.

    Melissa
     
  19. Harris, I read that exchange a lot differently than you. Phil responded to your first report (a miracle), and agreed with you. I can't find that post anymore, so he might have even removed it. He got a little prickley when you hit him again with an identical issue, but he was having you on a bit because you lean on him again with "that's why people are leaving". If he wanted you gone, he'd have pulled the plug without bothering with an explanation. Note: I know his MO, because I got banned for 6 months several years ago. And the second post you referenced seems to have been deleted as well.

    DPR is still an awesome collection of forums and contributors, and I enjoy its diversity in both geography and skill level. I know you, and many other Cafe inhabitants, don't feel that way, but that's because most here have their roots in the d100 forum, which has become increasingly contentious in recent times. It would only take one new kick-*** model introduction by Nikon to turn it around, like the long awaited d200. The d2x didn't do it because it's such a narrow market appeal product (pros and rich people).

    Jmho.
     
  20. Flew

    Flew

    994
    Jan 25, 2005
    Alabama
    Re: A very RARE moment of "Serious"

    Bill,

    I've been thinking about the same issue, and I think other Café members have been too. As you say, it is inevitable that we will get a misbehaving member sooner or later. I believe that the way to handle this is through 'member moderation'.

    I've already seen it once here. One of our members broke up a possibly contentious exchange, and everyone calmed down. We are still small enough that we are all friends here. I hope that it stays that way, even as we grow, and that this familiarity breeds mutual respect. If not, we'll all just stomp on the offending *******.... :lol: :lol:

    Thanks for your (admittedly rare) thoughtful post.... :wink:

    Frank

     
Loading...
Similar Threads Forum Date
RIP Phil Everly General Discussion Jan 4, 2014
Anyone familiar with "exiftool" by Phil Harvey? General Discussion Sep 29, 2013
RIP: Phil Harris General Discussion Feb 10, 2010
Look what Phil Askey has to say... General Discussion May 10, 2006
Phil Askey's D50 Review General Discussion Jul 23, 2005