Photography World

[Desmond]

I mentioned this earlier in the general discussion but have decided to start a separate discussion in this section because that is the main topic now. I went to the local tourism development manager for my idea on a "Photography World" tourist attraction. My main aim would be to make it a really cool place for everyone who attends - but of course it has to make money to survive which is why I'm putting it in this section.
I'm open to ideas on improving my design and obviously ways to make money out of it so it can grow.
This was my last drawing I sent to a consultant - the restaurant is at the bottom and forms the main entrance. From there people can pay to enter the themed rooms section.
Above the reception is a large hall for wedding receptions etc. From both of these front rooms there are windows so people can see what is going on in the paid area which should encourage more people to enter.

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I would love for the front to look something like this - anything that looks cool and entices people to pull over and have a look. Once they have stopped to look they can have a look at a board advertising what is inside.

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There always needs to be something free for people to do, like this leaning tower at "Puzzling world". People pull over to take selfies of them holding the tower up etc.

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I was thinking of something like a dragon with a spear in it that people can hold onto and get pictures of themselves 'slaying the dragon'.
Also in the car park an old car with a steel support holding it up in front, people can take 'selfies' of themselves holding the car up while a wheel is changed.
I had originally thought of two separate buildings but my consultant suggested a give a few options.

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I've seen some images from 'trick eye' museums but I'm thinking of higher quality displays, a room with furniture bolted to the ceiling for 'upside down' photos. [How many kids would want to be in their spider-man outfits on the ceiling]. A sideways room bed bolted to the wall for levitation photos. A high speed photography room with a drain for water and paint etc.
Portrait room with constant lighting set up and dimmer controls etc. etc. , so many options.
In the yard a really large wave pendulum set.

Basically an attraction with lots of cool stuff for people to either participate in or simply sit in the restaurant end watch, maybe on big screens. Photography competitions, people can submit their canvas [they can pay for Photography World to have it printed] which will be placed up against a large window with slots to be back-lit - image with most votes gets a month free attendance.
There are so many possibilities for growth as well, a themed room motel for guests to stay at that could also be hired out to movie makers. A camp ground nearby, have your customers right next door with something to do with their time.
I'm open to other ideas as well, my consultant has told me we would probably be targeting investors in the 5 million dollar range.

 

[the_traveler]

This isn't enough of a plan to get investors - unless you have access to crazy investors.
Investors expect to get their money out in some way.

 

[Desmond]

This isn't enough of a plan to get investors - unless you have access to crazy investors.
Investors expect to get their money out in some way.

The consultant thinks otherwise - New Zealand is probably quite a bit different to where you live and tourism is a big thing here.
Besides, the discussion is on how to achieve a better plan, not on whether my current plan will work or not.

 

[the_traveler]

This is an idea not a plan.
Tourism is big here too but the plan to make enough money for operating costs and pay the investors back has to make sense.
I've written a bunch of business plans, started 3 companies and dealt with investors.
Investors need to know that you know what to expect.

 

[Desmond]

Well obviously I haven't written down every detail here. I'll change my wording to "idea" from now on rather than "plan" if that will get the discussion back on track.
Did you read this part of my first post? "I'm open to ideas on improving my design and obviously ways to make money out of it so it can grow" and "I'm open to other ideas as well, my consultant has told me we would probably be targeting investors in the 5 million dollar range." That's the main point of the discussion, not a question on whether my primary idea as I have presented it here will work but a discussion on how I can develop the idea as a plan for it to work financially.
So if I could politely ask, no more "What you've shown here won't work" and more "This is how your idea could work" please.

 

[73Z1]

I think that the key to success, as it always is, would be for Photography World to deliver what the customer wants. So for me, the real question here is, who are your target customers? Based on what you have outlined, you expect to target everybody in the same way that a theme park does. It seems to me that such a wide audience would require a LOT of real estate, and structures, and security, and insurance. Which would require a LOT of money. I agree with the_traveler's point that your plan needs to identify clearly how the money gets from the customers to you. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that people will not pay enough (if at all) for shooting selfies with a statue, to pay back the costs of the statue in your lifetime.

That being said, I still think you have an excellent idea. Who would pay to shoot with statues? Pro & semi-pro photogs and possibly quite a few amateurs if it was built right.

In my past life, when I was working as a pro portrait shooter in Texas, there was an incredible, well groomed, public park that the pros and semi-pros would take their subjects to for portrait sessions every day. Used it myself a few times. It had lots of natural and planted flora that was well suited to making images. Being public, it was free to use, but I would have paid to use it. I would have paid more if the cost included some exclusiveness. Being public, you never knew if someone would wander into your background or just line up 20 feet away and watch. Here in CA, I've shot some portraits and a wedding at public parks for the same reason I did in TX, the backgrounds. Same issues here though, lots of pros and semi-pros working to get at the good locations, plus the usual crowds in the park.

The very best park I ever shot in was one that I'm sure your wife knows well. Butchart Gardens, Victoria, CANADA. Take a look at their webiste. http://www.butchartgardens.com Some might call it a photographer's paradise. I call it a non-pro photographer's paradise. The floral scenery is amazing. They have a very nice restaurant that I'm sure makes lots of money, lots of tourist stuff in the gift shop, and in the summer, fun stage plays after dark. The cost to enter is well worth it, but it isn't a photographer's paradise due to the crowds and lack of other photo specific ammenities. My suggestion would be to create a Photography World that starts with the natural BG aspect and build on it with the additional aspects you have listed like a castle, streams/moats, special shooting rooms, wedding reception area, etc. It seems to me that something built along the lines of Buchart Gardens, with facilities specifically tailored for the pro/semi-pro photographer and their client would be "relatively" easy to start and could be built on as time and profit permit.

For instance, at every public park I've ever shot portraits (including BG), there were public bathrooms available, but a public toilet is not the same as a clean changing room at the shooting venue. One that can be secured by the users during the shoot to store wardrobe changes and gear. As you already outlined, create a park with multiple areas, one with flowers and streams, one with statues and gargoyles, one with some finely restored autos and classy 1920's building fronts. Build each one, growing one at a time, with the idea that it is dedicated to serving photographers and their clients. Add a building or office area with calibrated PCs and printers where quick prints can be made. Setup an area just for sports teams to do group shots and the the photog takes the group over to your printer building and prints out the images immediately. Start with the flowers, because it is cheapest requiring mainly land. Over time, turn it into a total wedding/reception venue with a place to eat and relax between shoots.

 

[Desmond]

I think that the key to success, as it always is, would be for Photography World to deliver what the customer wants. So for me, the real question here is, who are your target customers? Based on what you have outlined, you expect to target everybody in the same way that a theme park does. It seems to me that such a wide audience would require a LOT of real estate, and structures, and security, and insurance. Which would require a LOT of money. I agree with the_traveler's point that your plan needs to identify clearly how the money gets from the customers to you. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that people will not pay enough (if at all) for shooting selfies with a statue, to pay back the costs of the statue in your lifetime.

Thanks very much for the in depth reply.
My initial idea for having something free outside, like a cool statue, comes from my experience on the south island when I drove past puzzling world. I may not have pulled over had it not been for the fact that I saw the leaning tower outside and thought "ok, I don't even have to pay to get pictures of that, let's have a look.."

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Once I had a look at the tower I wandered over to the board advertising what was inside - then they had me. That tower had just paid for itself even though it cost nothing for me to get my first pictures.
I'm thinking of an entrance fee and amenities set up primarily for photographers but also aimed at being entertaining for people in general - anyone who can enjoy a "cool picture" may not be a budding photographer but is somehow 'interested in photography'.
The consultant that spoke with me says we would probably be targeting investors around the $5 million mark and she says there are quite a few around that area interested in getting a piece of New Zealand. Tourism in our area brought $1.4 billion to the economy last year and this year has exceeded that already. Though there are only about 5 million people in the country we get a lot of tourists coming through.
I was told we would be primarily targeting local people to get a foundation before trying to attract tour busses to stop.
At the moment I have been quoted $4k for a 'half day workshop' with consultants plus another $12k for an in depth feasibility study. I'm busy contacting government programmes to encourage growth to see about getting the study funded right now.

 

[Philinnz]

interesting idea Desmond. Where are you thinking of doing this. Obviously Auckland has the biggest population but land etc the most expensive, Rotovegas has big tourist numbers. In Welly we are too interested in drinking coffee.

 

[Desmond]

interesting idea Desmond. Where are you thinking of doing this. Obviously Auckland has the biggest population but land etc the most expensive, Rotovegas has big tourist numbers. In Welly we are too interested in drinking coffee.

I'm thinking somewhere between Auckland, where most tourists land, and Rotorua, where most tourists are heading. An attraction next to the main road to add to the tour bus stops.

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It would be nice to start fresh with a new building but Candyland recently went up for sale. I got some drone footage, plenty
of big empty buildings - but it is a pretty old building and they want $2.5 million for it.

 

[the_traveler]

I was told we would be primarily targeting local people to get a foundation before trying to attract tour busses to stop.
At the moment I have been quoted $4k for a 'half day workshop' with consultants plus another $12k for an in depth feasibility study. I'm busy contacting government programmes to encourage growth to see about getting the study funded right now.

Do you know who is guaranted to make money on this?
The consultants.

You're thinking of buying a decrepit property for 2.5 million dollars, then fixing it up for adequate public usage, then furnishing it with photographer attractive settings and then expecting it to run to support the employees, the insurance and developing profit to pay back $5 million (plus interest) in some number of years yet you have no idea of your market or what people will pay.
That $13k in-depth study would probably be the first half of your business plan, minus all the real dollar amounts to fit it out and make it attractive.
If you expect to use the 'locals' why not go to every photography club and business and ask them if they'd be interested and how many times they would use it and what they'd pay?


NZ has about 3.5 million individual people visiting in 2016.
What percentage of those would you expect to lure to your place, how much could you charge per person?
How many people would work there, what's the cost to support them plus add-ons?
What would liability insurance cost?
What would licenses and utilities cost?
Why did Candyland fail?
Why didn't it throw off enough extra money to keep it in good repair.
They want to sell, get a look at their books.
Make a list of what you would have to fix/add and get a contractor to give you a ball-park estimate.

What you'd like to have doesn't mean anything.
It's what people would be willing to pay for.

Here's the story of a man who built a golf course that, by all measures is a raging success. It will host the US Open and is full all the time yet it cost him $26 million and everything he had, includiong the golf course. The man who built this year's US Open course lost $16 million on the deal including $6 million on nearby land because he wanted golfers 'to never see a house'

 

[Desmond]

Do you know who is guaranted to make money on this?
The consultants.

You're thinking of buying a decrepit property for 2.5 million dollars, then fixing it up for adequate public usage, then furnishing it with photographer attractive settings and then expecting it to run to support the employees, the insurance and developing profit to pay back $5 million (plus interest) in some number of years yet you have no idea of your market or what people will pay.
That $13k in-depth study would probably be the first half of your business plan, minus all the real dollar amounts to fit it out and make it attractive.
If you expect to use the 'locals' why not go to every photography club and business and ask them if they'd be interested and how many times they would use it and what they'd pay?


NZ has about 3.5 million individual people visiting in 2016.
What percentage of those would you expect to lure to your place, how much could you charge per person?
How many people would work there, what's the cost to support them plus add-ons?
What would liability insurance cost?
What would licenses and utilities cost?
Why did Candyland fail?
Why didn't it throw off enough extra money to keep it in good repair.
They want to sell, get a look at their books.
Make a list of what you would have to fix/add and get a contractor to give you a ball-park estimate.

What you'd like to have doesn't mean anything.
It's what people would be willing to pay for.

Here's the story of a man who built a golf course that, by all measures is a raging success. It will host the US Open and is full all the time yet it cost him $26 million and everything he had, includiong the golf course. The man who built this year's US Open course lost $16 million on the deal including $6 million on nearby land because he wanted golfers 'to never see a house'

No I'm not thinking of buying that building. That's why I said "but it's pretty old and they wantv $2,5 million for it."

 

[73Z1]

While consultants can be valuable, they do get paid whether you succeed or not. I would check with the local Chamber of Commerce and other business groups, in order to get in touch with the local business owners. They will have a significant amount of "real world" knowledge that most consultants probably will not. I have a 4yr degree in Business and one of the best classes I had was where the instructor brought in local small business owners to tell us about starting and owning a business. Lots of great and up-to-date info. Far different from what consultants and Govt. people tell you. That is another resource that might prove valuable and cost effective, local University Business Instructors. The good ones should have business contacts you might get advice from for free.

While the Candyland site may have old buildings, if the location is really good, it might be considered. I assume that the parcel is already zoned for business use and has had the basic utilities laid in. It could be cheaper to tear down and rebuild as needed, versus buying, permitting, and building from scratch. A good veneer may prove to be much cheaper than building new, if the basic structures are sound. Of course sometimes retro-fitting is more expensive, so a good building Engineer review is required. You drone footage shows me a well situated park with easy access for tourists and buses, with lots of surrounding land for expansion. Asking price is seldom the selling price.

Since you scoped it out with a drone, that leads to an idea where you could create a drone obstacle course and rent small "crash proof" drones like the one used in a recent dpreview article: Video: insane drone footage shows Muscle Beach in the early a.m. Put the resulting footage on big screen panels for all to see, or sell them the SD to take the video and take home. Even a pro photographer might like the ability to shoot publicity drone footage of them working, or of a wedding procession if the wedding was shot on-site.

The Napa area of CA is littered with vineyards that offer tasting rooms, restaurants, and wedding/reception facilities. If you partnered with some NZ and Australian wineries to serve wine and food targeted towards tourist sales, that might pull in more people. The Napa facilities are always crowded with locals bringing their visiting families and friends, as well as touring operations that bring them in by the busload. I'd guess that most northern hemisphere tourists to NZ would be interested in the "wines from down under".

 

[Desmond]

While consultants can be valuable, they do get paid whether you succeed or not. I would check with the local Chamber of Commerce and other business groups, in order to get in touch with the local business owners. They will have a significant amount of "real world" knowledge that most consultants probably will not. I have a 4yr degree in Business and one of the best classes I had was where the instructor brought in local small business owners to tell us about starting and owning a business. Lots of great and up-to-date info. Far different from what consultants and Govt. people tell you. That is another resource that might prove valuable and cost effective, local University Business Instructors. The good ones should have business contacts you might get advice from for free.

While the Candyland site may have old buildings, if the location is really good, it might be considered. I assume that the parcel is already zoned for business use and has had the basic utilities laid in. It could be cheaper to tear down and rebuild as needed, versus buying, permitting, and building from scratch. A good veneer may prove to be much cheaper than building new, if the basic structures are sound. Of course sometimes retro-fitting is more expensive, so a good building Engineer review is required. You drone footage shows me a well situated park with easy access for tourists and buses, with lots of surrounding land for expansion. Asking price is seldom the selling price.

Since you scoped it out with a drone, that leads to an idea where you could create a drone obstacle course and rent small "crash proof" drones like the one used in a recent dpreview article: Video: insane drone footage shows Muscle Beach in the early a.m. Put the resulting footage on big screen panels for all to see, or sell them the SD to take the video and take home. Even a pro photographer might like the ability to shoot publicity drone footage of them working, or of a wedding procession if the wedding was shot on-site.

The Napa area of CA is littered with vineyards that offer tasting rooms, restaurants, and wedding/reception facilities. If you partnered with some NZ and Australian wineries to serve wine and food targeted towards tourist sales, that might pull in more people. The Napa facilities are always crowded with locals bringing their visiting families and friends, as well as touring operations that bring them in by the busload. I'd guess that most northern hemisphere tourists to NZ would be interested in the "wines from down under".

So many possibilities, a drone racing area included
One thing about Candyland is that is is pretty close to a road that is about to be developed into a larger highway with a bridge that will give a view of the place as cars go by. It is also closer to the city of Auckland than other places I have looked at.
Old buildings themselves are actually not a bad thing for photography as they already have character.
There is even an old shed out back that includes this car.

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[Philinnz]

you have to be careful with locations near proposed motorways - often folks are too busy getting from A to B to be bothered taking a detour. Often difficult adapting existing buildings and facilities to fit what you want

 

[Desmond]

you have to be careful with locations near proposed motorways - often folks are too busy getting from A to B to be bothered taking a detour. Often difficult adapting existing buildings and facilities to fit what you want

Generally tourists are looking for something to do and like to see attractions close to the main road, as opposed to seeing a sign indicating an attraction 20km down a side road that may not be worth the drive. And people who want to go there from advertising and what they have heard would rather it be easy to reach.

 

[mnp13]

Another thing to consider - what is your repeat draw?

One of the reasons that Disney in Paris, France doesn't have the success of Disney in Florida and California, is Europeans don't have the "Disney Culture" that we do in the US. I know people who fly to Disney three or four times a year. They have season passes and time shares, and they live over 1,000 miles away from the park. In France (when I was living there) people talked about going, but as a one time thing, not as a repeat destination. They found it odd that anyone would plan to go to the same place, especially at the premium cost of tickets.

Can your business plan draw the local and regional repeat business? Or are you primarily counting on tourist and one time visits? If you are looking at tourism to fund things, how will you weather the lean tourist seasons? Or even the lean tourist years?

 

[Desmond]

Another thing to consider - what is your repeat draw?

One of the reasons that Disney in Paris, France doesn't have the success of Disney in Florida and California, is Europeans don't have the "Disney Culture" that we do in the US. I know people who fly to Disney three or four times a year. They have season passes and time shares, and they live over 1,000 miles away from the park. In France (when I was living there) people talked about going, but as a one time thing, not as a repeat destination. They found it odd that anyone would plan to go to the same place, especially at the premium cost of tickets.

Can your business plan draw the local and regional repeat business? Or are you primarily counting on tourist and one time visits? If you are looking at tourism to fund things, how will you weather the lean tourist seasons? Or even the lean tourist years?

One thing I was thinking of was competitions with the prize being something like a season pass to the winner. I had also thought of large windows in the cafe with slots to slide canvas images into [a backlit canvas looks really good]. I can get a good price on printing canvasses which could be part of the business. People could submit their images and visitors can vote on them to see who the best of the the month belongs to.
Then there's also the miniature room that could have constant changes and additions.
I made a small volcano set with a built in 'lightning' machine

Then I changed it to add a sunset

I can think of a lot of ways to improve the set and add other options to it.
Then there is also the high speed photography room that people can hire with new possibilities each time they visit.
And the 'messy' studio where people can throw paint and whatever for a cleaning fee.
Of course I'm open to other ideas as well

 

[Mitchell]

Maybe I'm not the right demographic, but I suspect you think I am. As a somewhat affluent advanced amateur photographer who likes to travel, it would seem I am in your sweet spot for this type of tourist "attraction". Sadly, this type of facility is the last place I would consider visiting if/when I make my way to NZ. My photographic and tourist desires of your beautiful country focus primarily on the incredible landscape opportunities. I would also like to hike, bike and meet locals. The thought of spending any time in an artificially created "photo world" after spending the time and effort involved in flying to NZ seems absurd.

To my mind, your only hope is a local market, but I doubt you could sustain this type of business based on just local photographic interest.

 

[gnagel]

Maybe I'm not the right demographic, but I suspect you think I am. As a somewhat affluent advanced amateur photographer who likes to travel, it would seem I am in your sweet spot for this type of tourist "attraction". Sadly, this type of facility is the last place I would consider visiting if/when I make my way to NZ. My photographic and tourist desires of your beautiful country focus primarily on the incredible landscape opportunities. I would also like to hike, bike and meet locals. The thought of spending any time in an artificially created "photo world" after spending the time and effort involved in flying to NZ seems absurd.

To my mind, your only hope is a local market, but I doubt you could sustain this type of business based on just local photographic interest.

I couldn't agree more...just can't fathom where the demand would come from to support this highly intensive capital investment.

Glenn

 

[Desmond]

Glenn[/QUOTE

I couldn't agree more...just can't fathom where the demand would come from to support this highly intensive capital investment.
Glenn

When I tour around I also aim for mountains and wild places and avoid anything artificially created.
Interestingly though when I was touring the most beautiful part of the country I was drawn to puzzling world which has nothing to do with New Zealand culture or any of the amazing scenery around it. The place is doing well so there must still be some people who would visit it.