Question about displaying images in order of filename -- PROBABLY SOLVED

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EDIT: I think the problem is solved, as explained in post #4.

The last time a friend brought over images for display on my television, they were displayed in the wrong order; they should have been displayed in order by filename but that wasn't happening.

She is preparing another slideshow for viewing this weekend, so I asked her to send me some files ahead of time to head off that problem in advance. She sent me the three image files shown below. The proper display order, which is how Windows displays them in the operating system, is as follows:
  1. DSC02503 (man wearing a hat) -- file format: JPG
  2. IMG_1985 copy (Leaning Tower of Pisa) -- file fomat: JPG
  3. IMG_2110 NO (purple umbrellas) -- file format: JPEG
The television and my cataloging software are displaying them in the following order:
  1. IMG_2110 NO (purple umbrellas)-- file format: JPEG
  2. DSC02503 (man wearing a hat) -- file format: JPG
  3. IMG_1985 copy (Leaning Tower of Pisa)-- file format: JPG
Is it possible that my television and cataloging software are displaying all JPEGs in proper order followed by JPGs in proper order?

I've provided the image files below just in case it's helpful to have them to find other details embedded in the electronic file that could cause the problem.

Thanks much for your help!

DSC02503 (man wearing a hat) -- file format: JPG
DSC02503.JPG
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)



IMG_1985 copy (Leaning Tower of Pisa) -- file fomat: JPG
IMG_1985 copy.jpg
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)



IMG_2110 NO (purple umbrellas) -- file format: JPEG
IMG_2110 NO.jpeg
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)
 
Last edited:
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They might be listed in chronological order.
They're actually being displayed in reverse chronological order on the TV and in the cataloging software, but that's only a coincidence.

My cataloging software is configured to display them in order by filename. In the nearly ten years I've been using its various editions to display my photos, it has never displayed them out of order until now. I've got a mix mostly of of NEF, JPG and PSD files but I've never had JPEGs. That makes me wonder if there is something unique about JPEGs that affects display order.
 
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I think the problem is solved.

I added a fourth file by copying a file and changing the copy to a fourth filename. My cataloging software is displaying the four files in the proper order. (I have no idea why it didn't display the three files in the proper order unless perhaps the screen needed to be refreshed). The television is displaying them in the proper order except that the last file is being displayed first. That happens often on the TV; it's a known bug in the TV's software.
 

Growltiger

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I can perhaps explain the last shown first issue and tell you the solution. It is caused by copying the files to their destination by doing the following:
Click on first file, hold down shift and click on last file, Copy ... Paste

Instead delete all the files on the destination and copy them to the destination again doing exactly this:
Click on last file, hold down shift and click on first file, Copy ... Paste

The explanation is that the TV is simply showing the files in the order they are on the media. It isn't a bug. When you copy files to media, the first file copied is always the last file you clicked, that is a standard behaviour of Windows ever since Windows 1, although few people realise it since they don't see it.
 
The explanation is that the TV is simply showing the files in the order they are on the media. It isn't a bug.
Thanks, Richard! I've barely been awake ten minutes and I've already learned something today!

I experimented and learned that another method that will copy and paste in the proper order is to use Ctrl+A to select the files. That method is actually more intuitive for me.

Is there a lay explanation as to why this stuff matters only when copying to other media and not when copying to another folder on the same drive?
 

Growltiger

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Thanks, Richard! I've barely been awake ten minutes and I've already learned something today!

I experimented and learned that another method that will copy and paste in the proper order is to use Ctrl+A to select the files. That method is actually more intuitive for me.

Is there a lay explanation as to why this stuff matters only when copying to other media and not when copying to another folder on the same drive?
Ctrl-A works, but sometimes you want just some of the files, and then the way I described is needed.
Another example is when you are copying say 10 folders. If you select the first folder then the last, you will get folder 10 then folder 1 then folder 2 etc. If you select the last then the first you get the folders copied in the expected order, 1,2,3...10.

Actually this stuff never matters, unless the target device doesn't sort the files. TVs I have used (Panasonic, Samsung), and also audio players built into cars, don't sort, so in these cases it always matters.
 
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Is there a lay explanation as to why this stuff matters only when copying to other media and not when copying to another folder on the same drive?
Without digging into your drive, my first impression is it the sort is using the file system's created date. Understand that to a NTFS file system, the created date is the date the file was first written to that file system. The file system doesn't care when you actually created the file or took the photo (EXIF for that). It only cares about tracking the file on the file system. So, as Richard pointed out, Windows copies the last file first so it gets an earlier timestamp than the following files. You're basically at the mercy of Windows and the order it copies the files to the other drive if your catalog software is using the file system's created dates to sort the files.

How copying between two NTFS formatted volumes works. Each NTFS volume maintains its own Master File Table ($MFT), which is the mechanism that tracks file names, associated dates, and other attributes about the file/folder on a NTFS file system. Every file/folder on that NTFS volume has an entry in the $MFT including the $MFT itself. When you move a file on the same NTFS volume, the only changes in the file's $MFT record are the object's parent (normally a folder) and the date stamp associated with changes to the $MFT record. The created, modified and accessed dates remain unchanged as you are only telling the file system the file now lives under a different parent on that same file system. When you copy a file to another volume you are actually creating the file for the first time on that target file system. What happens when copying to a different volume is the created date gets updated to the date/time of the copy, the modified date is carried over from the source file system and the accessed date (not used by the file system since Windows Vista) is updated with the date/time of the copy. An easy way to spot a file that has been copied to a different drive is the File Created date is later than the Last Written date. Microsoft used to have documentation of this on TechNet but it's now a 404 error and I can't find the article on the new site.

See if you can set what date stamp the catalog software uses to sort. If you want to preserve the dates when copying to a different drive, there are 3rd party utilities that will do that or if you're comfy in the command line, you can use Robocopy. There's documentation online about it. I found this one but didn't test it: https://www.jiho.com/en/tips/copy-files-without-changing-date-stamp.html

If anyone is interested, for Mac's with HFS+ or APFS, the dates do not change when copying a file to a different volume and the date of the copy is stored in the file's Apple extended metadata.
 
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See if you can set what date stamp the catalog software uses to sort.
I apparently confused folks by inserting the behavior of my cataloging software into the mix. I mentioned the cataloging software only because I initially thought it was behaving the same as the television's software when, in reality, it wasn't.

For the record, my cataloging software is configured to display in the ascending alphabetical order of the filename (though it is possible to configure it to use other parameters instead).
 
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Ah, sorry about that. Somehow my brain processed you were using the computer and software to display on the TV. I see now you are not. So, replace TV for catalog software and hopefully that helps, a little.
 
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