Spring '14 - Chris101 – Saturday Bonus - Photo 13-16 – 6/21

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35 vs 35 - Conclusion

I have spent the last month using Nikon's manual and auto-focusing mid-level 35mm lenses. They are moderately priced prime lenses (the autofocus lens is still available new, although it has recently been superseded by the new 35mm f/1.8 G lens at approximately twice the price.) Even though the performance of the f/2 twins is quite similar, the two lenses are completely different, in both their optical and physical construction. Here are diagrams of the lens construction from Leo Foo's mir website:

35mmoptics.gif
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The autofocus lens has a plastic body and many plastic parts inside. It is susceptible to the 'oil-on-the-blades' issue. My copy of the lens (bought new in 2003) succumbed to this malady several years ago, due to repeated exposure to Arizona heat, no doubt. The effect of oil leaking onto the diaphragm blades is that the response time of the aperture closing prior to exposure becomes very slow, resulting in exposure inconsistency. Ultimately the aperture would not change, making the lens almost useless. Repair consisted of buying a lens (through the Nikon Cafe Marketplace) and using the aperture assembly from that lens in my lens. All other parts of my lens are original.

I believe large front element of the AI-S lens is responsible for the increased flare of that lens. On the other hand, the lens is well constructed with a metal barrel and control rings. As an AIS lens, it has a 'nikkormat' prong, and a secondary aperture scale for cameras that show the aperture in the viewfinder, such as the F5. It is substantially heavier and larger than the autofocus lens because of these features. I obtained this lens used, attached to a Nikon D2x camera. It did not appear that it had ever been used hard, as it was immaculate when I got it.

I have used my 35mm autofocus lens very hard for several years. It was my go-to lens for low light work and street photography. Hundreds (if not thousands) of pictures were made through it. It has not had an easy life, as I do not 'baby' my lenses (neither do I mistreat them, but I will do what I need to do in order to get the picture!) As a result the plastic barrel of the AF lens had cracked due to being bumped and repeatedly put in and pulled out of a camera bag. Eventually (prior to last year's Octoberfest) I used methylene chloride to glue the barrel together so it would withstand that (and this) meme. Eventually those cracks grew and a chunk of the barrel fell off the lens. Here is the damage to the lens:

35mmAFcracked.jpg
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The damage is minor, and repairable (with a part from the second copy I bought.) I intend on continuing to use the lens as-is, until it becomes a problem. Both lenses have their strengths, and their weaknesses. Here is my tabulation:

Test 1, Acuity: I believe the autofocus lens is somewhat sharper in the center, but the AI lens has better consistency across the field. None-the-less, the lenses are so similar, there is scant reason to pick one above the other based on acuity alone. This test is a DRAW.

Test 2, Chromatic Aberration:
Here there are some, if minor differences. The chroma is more pronounced, and more saturated in the manual lens. It is not substantially less in the autofocus lens, but it is noticeably so. This test goes to the AF lens by a nose.

Test 3, Distortion: These lenses are nearly identical in their slight barrel distortion. The autofocus is slightly longer in focal length, thus magnifying it's distortion slightly. Because of this, the (slightly wider) manual lens takes this test by the smallest possible margin.

Test 4, Flare: Here there is a clear difference between the lenses. The autofocus lens' flare is general and soft - the contrast of the image is reduced by a strong backlight, but artifacts are minimized. The manual lens had a hard, rainbow colored, optically warped, ghost of bright objects. While this can be used creatively, it cannot be easily eliminated. I have a lens hood permanently attached to my AI-S lens, and rarely use filters as they would only aggravate the flare. The AF lens owns this test, with the creative use caveat.

Test 5, Construction: The AF lens is plastic and has suffered from hard use. The AI lens has seen less use, but is made of metal, and less likely to sustain damage with normal usage. The metal lens is heavier, which is not necessarily a bad thing. The AF lens fits nicely on lighter cameras, such as my N80 film camera. The AI lens came with a large camera (the D2x) and it balances well on that camera. It also feels good on my D700. Looking through the lenses, there is more intimacy with the AI lens, probably due to the tactile feedback of manually focusing it. The AI-S takes the construction test.


Overall, the lenses are evenly matched. I cannot say one is "better" than the other. They are, however different. The main difference is designed in - the AF lens autofocuses. At my age this is becoming important. However, I use hyperfocal apertures and often shoot without looking through the lens. With an AF lens this can lead to the wrong part of the image being in sharp focus, so a manual focus lens can be be an advantage. In regular (non-meme) use I put these lenses on different cameras for different uses.

I think of the AF lens as a DX format normal lens, so it lives on my D2x camera. The damaged barrel will also have less effect on the DX camera, as will the slightly softer corners at large apertures. The AF lens also focuses about 25% closer than the AI lens. This is good, since it is problematic to put my +4 close-up filter onto the damaged threads. Here is the 35mm f/2 AF D lens in that environment:

35AFDonD2x.jpg
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The manual focus lens is a classical 35mm lens, which I use for street shooting and environmental portraiture. It is often found attached to my Nikon FG film camera (it does not meter on my N80), or now, after my experience in this meme, on my D700. I absolutely love how the lens experience feels more intimate than does the autofocus lens. I am sure this is all psychological, but what is photography, if not applied psychology? Plus it looks good on an older camera, as seen here, attached to my FG:

35AISonFG.jpg
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Tomorrow, I will be driving (in my new Soul!) to Northern Arizona to pick up a standard red poodle puppy. I'll be taking the D700 with the 35mm f/2 AI-S lens attached. If anything comes out good, I'll post the results in another thread - watch for it. This lens/camera combo might just be my new 'everyday carry' for the summer!


I will leave you with a final challenge photo. Here is a strongly back-lighted Olivia. Can you guess the lens?

olivia062114.jpg
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No flare and little visible astigmatism, I take the AF again on this one, Chris.

Fantastic finishing, illustrated write-up to the meme, Chris. And to those of us who have (AI) or had (AF) these lenses, a really, really interesting write-up.

I trust you'll join in on the post-mortem and share your thoughts....I would highly value them, as I am shure would others.
 
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First off, everybody gets a pass on the 'guess the lens' part of my post. I goofed! This is actually a 50mm f/1.8 AF lens, not one of my chosen lenses at all! I thought it was the 35mm AFD on my DX camera, and I took a 50mm on FX for comparison of the field of view. I grabbed the wrong one for the thread! :eek:

Sorry about that.

Thanks for the extensive review, i dont own the af version i have the ais but i prefer the 35mm f/1.4ais and g versions, the new f/1.8 should be good too.
On the portrait i think its the afd, seems to have been shot fairly up close.
cheers

I am curious about that new 35mm f/1.8 FX lens. It is surprising that Nikon has made both a DX and FX version of the same fl/aperture, but 35mm is perhaps the most popular focal length, at least this is my perception. I know a lot of people who swear by the 35mm f/1.4 AIS, but it is so HUGE for a 35mm! Well, not when compared to the Sigma or Zeiss lenses, but big none-the-less. My favorite 35mm is an f/1.7 Voigtlander made for Leica thread mount. It's about the size of a shot glass.

The portrait was shot at point blank range.

Wow - very detailed review. Like Fons I have the 1.4 ais - sold the 2 afd even though I always liked it - small, fast focusing and great iq
Nice portrait of Olivia
Good to shoot with you again in this meme - have a nice summer

It was a real pleasure sharing the last month with you, your daughter and all the others here in meme-land, as it is every time. My 35mm AFD is nearing the end of it's current incarnation. I don't know if I will do another repair on it (this would be surgery #4!) so perhaps it's time to retire it. I think this lens has seen more action than all my other lenses put together (save the 24-120.) ... Who am I kidding - I have a sentimental attachment to this lens, as well as a respect for it's performance. Of course I'll fix it if I can.

I agree with Morten and Fons - a very extensive review, indeed! Thanks for the tutorial this Meme, Chris. It was enjoyable and educational.

See you on the boards!

Thanks Lyndee. And thank you for all the administering you did to keep the meme on track. It's times like this I miss working in the pits alongside you and the others.

I don't really think of this as a tutorial though, but more of an exploration. I knew next to nothing when I started, and discovered it as I went. It was indeed fun,

Nice work Chris. I really enjoyed your photos and the information that you presented for us. Have a nice trip and hope the dog is great. Looking forward to some pics.

Thank Art. Ya know, I took my camera (D700 with 35mm AIS - my new daily carry) along when we went to get the dog, but the day was so busy, I never got it out to shoot! :eek: I had fun with this thread, but I'm not fooling anyone, I'm sure. I'll leave the real lens testing to Bjørn, Michael Reisman, Thom Hogan, etc. and go back to shooting through the lenses. This could get to be like work!
 
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That new car looks like lots of fun!! Very nice photo of it!!

Thanks Terri, it IS fun! Ya want to hear crazy? I joined a couple of fora about my car, to keep up with all the stuff about it. One in particular seems extra fun - the "Soul Hamsters Forum" (from the TV commercial that features humanoid hamsters driving a Soul.) It turns out one of the moderators on that forum lives just down the street - I have seen her car driving up and down right in front of the house! I just missed a local get-together by a week, but I'm sure we'll have another. Sooner rather than later if I have my way!

Chis, I've learned a lot about those 2 35mm lenses and about lenses in general from this Meme, Thank you and enjoy your new puppy :D

Thank you Dave! This was your first meme, right? I hope you had fun and will continue playing with us. This is a fun, and motivating way to involve group interaction with photography. Our new doggie (his name is Leo ... for now!) is right at home. We have had his uncle for a year and a half, and when he saw Louis, he went nuts, jumping and playing. At two years old, Louis says he's feeling old in comparison.

I will get some pictures of him soon, I promise!

No flare and little visible astigmatism, I take the AF again on this one, Chris.

Fantastic finishing, illustrated write-up to the meme, Chris. And to those of us who have (AI) or had (AF) these lenses, a really, really interesting write-up.

I trust you'll join in on the post-mortem and share your thoughts....I would highly value them, as I am shure would others.

Yeah, that 50mm f/1.8 is quite the performer, huh. :whistle:

This has been a very interesting, and completely different meme for me - not at all what I first envisioned. But as it unfolded, I got more and more into it. I now have a more complete and deeper understanding of the differences (and moreso, similarities) between these two lenses. I was surprised, as my observations did not always support my intuitive feelings about them. I like the AIS a lot more than I thought I would as a direct result.

I'm looking forward to the post-mortem (doesn't that actually mean autopsy?) thread. I am always so filled with energy after a meme, and end up feeling ... empty with no more shooting on the schedule. This will cure that, I am sure!

And one more time, thanks for all your work in getting this together, and keeping it on track!
 
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I am curious about that new 35mm f/1.8 FX lens. It is surprising that Nikon has made both a DX and FX version of the same fl/aperture, but 35mm is perhaps the most popular focal length, at least this is my perception. I know a lot of people who swear by the 35mm f/1.4 AIS, but it is so HUGE for a 35mm! Well, not when compared to the Sigma or Zeiss lenses, but big none-the-less. My favorite 35mm is an f/1.7 Voigtlander made for Leica thread mount. It's about the size of a shot glass.

Chris, all the non-macro shots I've posted for this meme are taken with the new 35/1.8 FX lens.
 
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Messages
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Thanks Morten! It's a big change indeed. But considering I went from a Beetle to the 'stang, that was a big change too. I lived in Detroit in 1964 when the Mustang came out, and I wanted one then. 30-40 years for desire fulfilment? I think that defines patience. I have crossed "own a Mustang" off my bucket list.

As for cool cars ... I think Germany has long ago taken the blue ribbon for that one. Becky's other car (left over from her days as a corporate attorney) is an E320 Benz. That is one sweet car, but not exactly cheap! :eek:

Yeah the E isn't bad at all. I have to agree, Chris. A nice car - the hamster one. :D
And many thanks for your contributions. It was nice to do the "guess the lens" challenge!
 
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Chris, all the non-macro shots I've posted for this meme are taken with the new 35/1.8 FX lens.

Ah yes! I will study them more closely.

Yeah the E isn't bad at all. I have to agree, Chris. A nice car - the hamster one. :D
And many thanks for your contributions. It was nice to do the "guess the lens" challenge!

Cool, it was my pleasure. Well until I posted one with no answer, right? ;)
 
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Finally we see a difference between the two lenses in this week four experiment - flare. I don't know about you, but I am of two minds about lens flare. While it robs a picture of contrast and resolution, it often adds interesting artefacts and atmosphere.

I cut a one inch diameter hole in a piece of black matboard, and put a clear, 150 watt, incandescent bulb directly behind the hole. I photographed the hole at the lens's closest focus. Here, the two lenses are compared at f/3.2 and f/16:

flarecomp.jpg
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After one sixth of a million miles, my 2001 Mustang was ready to retire. I've known this and planned to replace it by the time it was due for emission inspection on the first of July. With two weeks to spare, I bought a new car, which I photographed with the AFD lens:

greensoul.jpg
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Rather than photograph an old camera for the 'contest', I shot the hamster-wagon's dials using an aperture about halfway between those used in the comparison.

Can you tell which lens, based on the flare?

instrumentpanel.jpg
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chris it has been interesting to follow your work on these two lenses, nice car shame your mustang had to go
 
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35 vs 35 - Conclusion

I have spent the last month using Nikon's manual and auto-focusing mid-level 35mm lenses. They are moderately priced prime lenses (the autofocus lens is still available new, although it has recently been superseded by the new 35mm f/1.8 G lens at approximately twice the price.) Even though the performance of the f/2 twins is quite similar, the two lenses are completely different, in both their optical and physical construction. Here are diagrams of the lens construction from Leo Foo's mir website:

35mmoptics.gif
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)

The autofocus lens has a plastic body and many plastic parts inside. It is susceptible to the 'oil-on-the-blades' issue. My copy of the lens (bought new in 2003) succumbed to this malady several years ago, due to repeated exposure to Arizona heat, no doubt. The effect of oil leaking onto the diaphragm blades is that the response time of the aperture closing prior to exposure becomes very slow, resulting in exposure inconsistency. Ultimately the aperture would not change, making the lens almost useless. Repair consisted of buying a lens (through the Nikon Cafe Marketplace) and using the aperture assembly from that lens in my lens. All other parts of my lens are original.

I believe large front element of the AI-S lens is responsible for the increased flare of that lens. On the other hand, the lens is well constructed with a metal barrel and control rings. As an AIS lens, it has a 'nikkormat' prong, and a secondary aperture scale for cameras that show the aperture in the viewfinder, such as the F5. It is substantially heavier and larger than the autofocus lens because of these features. I obtained this lens used, attached to a Nikon D2x camera. It did not appear that it had ever been used hard, as it was immaculate when I got it.

I have used my 35mm autofocus lens very hard for several years. It was my go-to lens for low light work and street photography. Hundreds (if not thousands) of pictures were made through it. It has not had an easy life, as I do not 'baby' my lenses (neither do I mistreat them, but I will do what I need to do in order to get the picture!) As a result the plastic barrel of the AF lens had cracked due to being bumped and repeatedly put in and pulled out of a camera bag. Eventually (prior to last year's Octoberfest) I used methylene chloride to glue the barrel together so it would withstand that (and this) meme. Eventually those cracks grew and a chunk of the barrel fell off the lens. Here is the damage to the lens:

35mmAFcracked.jpg
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)


The damage is minor, and repairable (with a part from the second copy I bought.) I intend on continuing to use the lens as-is, until it becomes a problem. Both lenses have their strengths, and their weaknesses. Here is my tabulation:

Test 1, Acuity: I believe the autofocus lens is somewhat sharper in the center, but the AI lens has better consistency across the field. None-the-less, the lenses are so similar, there is scant reason to pick one above the other based on acuity alone. This test is a DRAW.

Test 2, Chromatic Aberration:
Here there are some, if minor differences. The chroma is more pronounced, and more saturated in the manual lens. It is not substantially less in the autofocus lens, but it is noticeably so. This test goes to the AF lens by a nose.

Test 3, Distortion: These lenses are nearly identical in their slight barrel distortion. The autofocus is slightly longer in focal length, thus magnifying it's distortion slightly. Because of this, the (slightly wider) manual lens takes this test by the smallest possible margin.

Test 4, Flare: Here there is a clear difference between the lenses. The autofocus lens' flare is general and soft - the contrast of the image is reduced by a strong backlight, but artifacts are minimized. The manual lens had a hard, rainbow colored, optically warped, ghost of bright objects. While this can be used creatively, it cannot be easily eliminated. I have a lens hood permanently attached to my AI-S lens, and rarely use filters as they would only aggravate the flare. The AF lens owns this test, with the creative use caveat.

Test 5, Construction: The AF lens is plastic and has suffered from hard use. The AI lens has seen less use, but is made of metal, and less likely to sustain damage with normal usage. The metal lens is heavier, which is not necessarily a bad thing. The AF lens fits nicely on lighter cameras, such as my N80 film camera. The AI lens came with a large camera (the D2x) and it balances well on that camera. It also feels good on my D700. Looking through the lenses, there is more intimacy with the AI lens, probably due to the tactile feedback of manually focusing it. The AI-S takes the construction test.


Overall, the lenses are evenly matched. I cannot say one is "better" than the other. They are, however different. The main difference is designed in - the AF lens autofocuses. At my age this is becoming important. However, I use hyperfocal apertures and often shoot without looking through the lens. With an AF lens this can lead to the wrong part of the image being in sharp focus, so a manual focus lens can be be an advantage. In regular (non-meme) use I put these lenses on different cameras for different uses.

I think of the AF lens as a DX format normal lens, so it lives on my D2x camera. The damaged barrel will also have less effect on the DX camera, as will the slightly softer corners at large apertures. The AF lens also focuses about 25% closer than the AI lens. This is good, since it is problematic to put my +4 close-up filter onto the damaged threads. Here is the 35mm f/2 AF D lens in that environment:

35AFDonD2x.jpg
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)


The manual focus lens is a classical 35mm lens, which I use for street shooting and environmental portraiture. It is often found attached to my Nikon FG film camera (it does not meter on my N80), or now, after my experience in this meme, on my D700. I absolutely love how the lens experience feels more intimate than does the autofocus lens. I am sure this is all psychological, but what is photography, if not applied psychology? Plus it looks good on an older camera, as seen here, attached to my FG:

35AISonFG.jpg
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)

Tomorrow, I will be driving (in my new Soul!) to Northern Arizona to pick up a standard red poodle puppy. I'll be taking the D700 with the 35mm f/2 AI-S lens attached. If anything comes out good, I'll post the results in another thread - watch for it. This lens/camera combo might just be my new 'everyday carry' for the summer!


I will leave you with a final challenge photo. Here is a strongly back-lighted Olivia. Can you guess the lens?

olivia062114.jpg
Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)

nice conclusion to this exercise chris, enjoyed you work over the last month
 
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Thanks Les!

I'll miss my Mustang too, but it was coming down with a major mechanical malfunction every month - costing more than enough for a car payment! La Verde (my new Soul) will take good care of my transportation needs.

Take care, and I'll see you next meme!
 

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