Topaz Sharpen AI processing colour.

[TonyW]

Even that is up for discussion. I tried resaving the same file 30 times at maximum quality. I compared it in photoshop using the difference mode to compare layers. No difference
Try your own test- it is easy.
Much of what we know is wrong.
gary

Saving an image as JPEG repeatedly will not loose quality in a single editing session. The image also needs to have been altered in some way and saved and closed before any loss occurs. Some/all? image editors have to recompress during Save As.

So potential damage can only happen when an image is closed, then re-opened, edited, and saved. It is also important to realise that the recompression algorithms only effects colour by discarding/combining some information first then luminosity. It does not change resolution i.e. pixel count. The effect may be very subtle over many cycles and dependent on image content may be difficult to observe

 

[Locton]

Just following up on a few comments, I do use it as a stand alone application, I also use it just to give a little extra sharpening and this could be 20 -30%, sometimes I will mask the eyes and legs and just give this part of the image a little extra.

I have now exported as a TIFF prior to dropping into Sharpen AI as suggested and there is no loss of colour from the original image, ie Sharpen AI does not alter the levels this way, so therefore Sharpen AI must have a compatibility issue with NEFF files.

So from now on I will edit in ON1, save as a TIFF & then use Sharpen AI if needed, I have been putting the image into De-noise after sharpening, but now I will use it all in a different order.

 

[Mike Buckley]

So from now on I will edit in ON1, save as a TIFF & then use Sharpen AI if needed,

Using that workflow, I recommend when editing in ON1 that you do no sharpening before handing off to Sharpen AI. If after using Sharpen AI you still need more sharpening, return to ON1 to make that happen. Of course, hopefully most of the time you won't need to use Sharpen AI at all.

 

[Locton]

Using that workflow, I recommend when editing in ON1 that you do no sharpening before handing off to Sharpen AI. If after using Sharpen AI you still need more sharpening, return to ON1 to make that happen. Of course, hopefully most of the time you won't need to use Sharpen AI at all.

Yes if I sharpen in On 1 I would never do it in Topaz Sharpen AI and visa versa, the same with noise as there really is no need for it. What I do find is Topaz does do a better job in both sharpening and removing noise that ON1.

 

[Clix Pix]

Much of the use of Topaz Sharpen AI is based on the premise that the image is not sharp at the time of capture. The following statements are from Topaz's web page dedicated to advertising Sharpen AI's capabilities: "Fix blurry images...There’s nothing worse than the feeling of taking the perfect photo, rushing home, opening it up on your computer… and realizing that it’s blurry at 100%. When this happens, it’s usually caused by one of three problems: camera shake, focus issues, or general softness." (The bold font is at the website; not added by me.)
https://topazlabs.com/sharpen-ai/



I was referring to the following stuff you wrote in November: "sometimes Topaz Sharpen AI oversharpens or undersharpens and doesn't quite achieve the results for which I had been hoping. I notice this particularly with shooting birds swimming in choppy water -- invariably it oversharpens the water, and I have to dial back or just not bother using their treatment of the image. When it works well, it really works well, but when it doesn't....."
Post #26 at https://www.nikoncafe.com/threads/not-at-all-happy-with-getting-started-with-topaz-plug-in-solved.325132/

Thank you! Since that time I've also learned a little more about my tools and now at the times I feel it necessary I will take a bird-in-the-water image into Sharpen AI and selectively sharpen just the areas that may need it, leaving the water alone, and that has helped with the issue I mentioned way back in November. Someone else on here also has mentioned that the same sort of issue occurs with B&W at times. As I mentioned in an earlier post: user error! Editing is still not one of my skill sets, although I have made some progress over the past couple of years.

Something else comes into play here as well: although IBIS is wonderful, even with it, when handholding a camera body with a 61 mp sensor and a fairly longish lens (100-400mm) and a bird is moving in the water, there is still going to be the potential for issues with nailing absolute sharpness, regardless of shutter speed and such. Even when I use the 200-600mm lens on the tripod with the Wimberley gimbal there have been occasions when I've still needed to sharpen the eye(s) a little or the feather detail. There is a big difference between shooting with a camera with 24mp and one with significantly higher resolution! Even more of a difference when using a camera with a 1 inch sensor!

Shooting a tabletop at home, a macro, no need to take an image into Topaz Sharpen, of course, as that is a different situation altogether, and more under my control than when I'm shooting a living creature swimming around in the water.

 

[Mike Buckley]

if I sharpen in On 1 I would never do it in Topaz Sharpen AI and visa versa

Never say never. In the few circumstances I have needed Topaz Sharpen AI, I've found that judicious, follow-up sharpening has been helpful in my normal post-processing procedure. I won't bore you with the details about that. Instead, I will only recommend that you remain open-minded about the possibility of needing to use Sharpen AI first and then adding just a bit more sharpening using ON1.

 

[Cleanimage]

Locton - I use Topaz Sharpen AI as a plug-in with Lightroom and have never noticed any changes in exposure between the edited NEF file and the Tiff file generated by Sharpen AI when I save my sharpen edits. However, when I loaded an unedited NEF directly into Sharpen, the Tiff file I saved came out substantially darker than the NEF file. Go figure; this is just the opposite result that you got. When I saved the NEF file as a Tiff file, sharpened it in Sharpen AI, and then save it as a separate Tiff file, there was no change in the exposure between the two Tiff files. Based on the results I got, I would always edit my RAW files first, save them as Tiff or Jpeg files, and then do my sharpening in Sharpen AI. As Mike pointed out, the workflows really do differ depending on whether you use Sharpen AI as a plug-in or as a standalone application.

 

[Locton]

Locton - I use Topaz Sharpen AI as a plug-in with Lightroom and have never noticed any changes in exposure between the edited NEF file and the Tiff file generated by Sharpen AI when I save my sharpen edits. However, when I loaded an unedited NEF directly into Sharpen, the Tiff file I saved came out substantially darker than the NEF file. Go figure; this is just the opposite result that you got. When I saved the NEF file as a Tiff file, sharpened it in Sharpen AI, and then save it as a separate Tiff file, there was no change in the exposure between the two Tiff files. Based on the results I got, I would always edit my RAW files first, save them as Tiff or Jpeg files, and then do my sharpening in Sharpen AI. As Mike pointed out, the workflows really do differ depending on whether you use Sharpen AI as a plug-in or as a standalone application.

Wow as you say totally the opposite to what I get and it has happened every time so that's a lot of images. I does not worry me that the Tops Sharpen changes the exposure to make images lighter as I will edit to get them back to what I am happy with, but I just could not work out why it was happening. From all the comments made I am not sure there is a particular reason and I am waiting to see what Topaz says? Although before you made your comment I thought it was incompatibility with NEFF files. now I am not so sure.

 

[Ann_JS]

Locton:
I am wondering if your screen has been calibrated and whether its brightness is set too high because I also see your image as being very dark and "under-exposed".

 

[Locton]

Locton:
I am wondering if your screen has been calibrated and whether its brightness is set too high because I also see your image as being very dark and "under-exposed".

Maybe but I used this image which was dark to really show the difference, maybe exaggerating a bit. But even a correctly exposed image or there or thereabouts it changes the NEFF file. But as previously suggested to save as a TIFF file, dropping the TIFF file into Topaz Sharpen there is no colour change after sharpening.

 

[Lucky Duck]

Maybe but I used this image which was dark to really show the difference, maybe exaggerating a bit. But even a correctly exposed image or there or thereabouts it changes the NEFF file. But as previously suggested to save as a TIFF file, dropping the TIFF file into Topaz Sharpen there is no colour change after sharpening.

FWIW, I've not seen this behavior from Sharpen AI regardless of the exposure level of the nef file (just ran test to see), but of course that is of no help to you. However I would strongly recommend not using S-AI as a bare-bones raw converter because its noise reduction is not very good—I've seen it make noise worse—and sharpening is rarely a good first step in processing, with the possible exception of mild capture sharpening.

 

[Locton]

FWIW, I've not seen this behavior from Sharpen AI regardless of the exposure level of the nef file (just ran test to see), but of course that is of no help to you. However I would strongly recommend not using S-AI as a bare-bones raw converter because its noise reduction is not very good—I've seen it make noise worse—and sharpening is rarely a good first step in processing, with the possible exception of mild capture sharpening.

Well thanks, I use De-Noise if needed and I find it really good, only need 15/20% normally on say ISO1000 to 2000, not that I use ISO2000 that much if at all. It is strange that you have no issues and earlier in the post there was the reverse situation to what I am getting.

 

[Ann_JS]

My guess is that Topaz is unable to read the camera's EXIF data or the RAW Converters xml edits in your NEF but can read your edited and saved Tiffs.