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vibration reduction

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by wloneill, Sep 2, 2008.

  1. wloneill

    wloneill

    89
    Jun 6, 2007
    Lexington, KY
    I remember learning with film cameras using 35mm. format, that if you set your shutter speed to the inverse of your focal length you should be able to handhold the camera without the use of a tripod. Now with the DX form factor does that rule still hold? Say for instance you are using a Nikon 70-200 f 2.8 VR lens and you are zoomed all the way to 200mm. (equivalent to roughly 300 mm on the old 35mm format) would you be able to handhold without motion artifact at a shutter speed of 1/300 sec. I took some images zoomed all the way in with a shutter speed of 1/600 with the VR off and the images weren't as crisp as I would have liked. I am wondering if this is motion artifact and if I would have been better served to use the VR. The subject was not moving by the way. I would post the images to show you but the subject doesn't want me to.
     
  2. AFAIK your shutter speed needs to equal that of the focul length including the crop factor (when VR is not in use). However, your technique will come in to play massively as some people can hand hold and very slow shutter speeds were as others can't get a sharp image at much faster shutters speeds than the focul length.
     
  3. Is this a new lens, have you tested it for sharpness? many a new 70/200 has arrived OOF.
    What body are you shooting with, and how long have you been using that body?

    Back up and do some test on a tri pod, or using bean bags, remember to turn the VR off while on a pod.
    For my older shaky self, I double the FL to get my minimum shutter speed, so 1/600 would be my minimum, at 200mm.
     
  4. the misconception of this is that you need to include the crop factor. You don't.

    The lens is the same length regardless of what the sensor is, it's just that with a cropped sensor you're only seeing the central portion of an image. The effects of handheld vibration is equal regardless of whether it's cropped or not.

    What body are you shooting with? Is your technique ok with film? The other thing, are you sure it's handheld vibration/motion blur or is it just the difference between film and digital caused by the AA Filter?
     
  5. Ah right, I thought because your effectively seeing a 'zoomed in' image your also enhancing the vibrations you'd get at that focul length. When looking through a 600mm on a D2x and then a D3 there certainly seems to be a lot more movement in the image with the crop sensor of the D2x so I guess that's why most folks assume that means you'll need a faster shutter, like I did :) 
     
  6. You're not really seeing a "zoomed in" image it's like taking a photo with a D3 and then cropping the centre.

    It's just that a cropped sensor has small photosites.

    The body can cause issues also, as a 70-200 2.8 will handle a lot better on a heavier body, than say, a D40
     
  7. That does actually make perfect sense when you think about it! :smile:
     
  8. wloneill

    wloneill

    89
    Jun 6, 2007
    Lexington, KY
    I am using a D80 with that lens

    I am using a D80 with that lens and I tend to think the problem is more with the photographer than the lens because I have gotten some good shots with the lens aperture wide open and a faster shutter speed. I will do the tripod test though as that will help prove it. Thanks for all the responses they are quite helpful
     
  9. This has been discussed at length, and I can not find the thread to reference.
    I can not shoot at 1 to 1, as I used to with a 35mm sensor. If the image is magnified, then the motion is also, I see no difference than with using a set of tubes. In any case I can not get a guaranteed shot at 200mm set at 1/200 of a sec.
     
  10. The image is not "magnified" though. Why would a 70-200 have more camera shake on a D300 than on a D3?

    The only difference is that the D300 only sees the centre crop.

    What if the D3 was 20+ mp, allowing you to shoot in 12mp cropped mode? Would that mean on a D3 you'd get more camera shake? As that is essentially all the sensor size difference is.
     
  11. I am not qualified to debate this, but you are you saying, that if I take a pic with a lens on 80/200/300, and then change nothing but the body, to a D 700, that the image will not appear farther away??? Then if it does appear farther away, then was in not magnified with the DX bodies???
     
  12. no it's not magnified, It's just a crop of the centre at a higher resolution.

    I agree that I assume, like yourself, I do not have extensive test or experience in this field to prove it, it just seems that this is the logical reasoning of it, and how I've understood it.

    I may get a roll of film and shoot 36 static shots handheld with the F5 @ 200mm and the same with a D300 @ 200mm and see how much difference there is.
     
  13. PeteZ28

    PeteZ28

    Oct 5, 2007
    Newtown, PA
    Yes you DO need to still account for the "crop factor", because the smaller portion of the 35mm frame that would normally be too small to resolve minute vibrations from is now the entire image.

    Think about it, an 8x10 "enlargement" from a DSLR is really the same as a 13x19 on film.

    To say that focal length is all that matters, and not "effective" focal length is WRONG. Most 8x10 cameras START with 300mm lenses and go up from there. That's equal to 50mm on a 35mm camera, or 35mm on digital. While I certainly would not want to "hand hold" an 8x10 camera, given the same ISO, shutter speed, and aperature you could in theory shoot one at 1/60 and still get a good image.
     
  14. PeteZ28

    PeteZ28

    Oct 5, 2007
    Newtown, PA
    The same can also be said for close up and macro shots. For example, a 1:1 macro shot will render the image the same size as itself on the negative. So any movement would be equal to actual movement on film. When blown up to 8x10 from a 35mm film size for example, that movement will be magnified equal to the magnification of the print, or roughly 10 times in each direction of movement!!! That equation goes strictly by ratio, immaterial of film size or focal length.
     
  15. woodie

    woodie

    45
    Aug 2, 2008
    Central Ohio
    And in the end it's the steady (or unsteady) hands of the photographer that make a difference. All other factors being the same, some can hand hold at slower shutter speeds than others.
     
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