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wide angle lens question pls?

Discussion in 'General Technical Discussion' started by TOLady, Dec 13, 2005.

  1. I know I've been MIA for a while now, putting some deals to bed, and buggered up my back badly (NEVER lift and twist at the same time - you'll pay for it!) but I have a question for the techies here....

    In fairly simple terms, can someone pls explain to me why the Tokina 12-24 WA lens won't work on a full frame camera, as they say on sales websites. There's talk of the Fuji S4Pro being FF, that is why this is an issue for me - in case I want to upgrade later. If a lens fits on the front of the camera, why on earth would the CCD affect the lens' ability to work? I'm not getting my brain around that one???!!!:confused:  :confused:  :confused: 
  2. nfoto

    nfoto Guest

    It's of little use for a lens to be mounted to a camera if the image it projects onto the imager is too small to cover the entire format. Then, you will get ugly vignetting of the recorded image. "DX" lenses and similar are designed with a smaller image circle in mind, for technical reasons not necessary to delve into here. Thus they won't work well or not at all with a larger recording format.

    (the above is a general statement, I'm not familiar with the mentioned Tokina)
  3. Isn't this just a "DX" design? I.e. designed for APS sized sensors.

    Where did you read about the S4 FF? The Dpr..... :) mad: ) folks have posted a couple threads on the S4 but I didn't see any mention of FF.

    Even though I'm awaiting a D200 the S4 could be a 'must have' .............. just based on the great image results of the S3. :biggrin:

  4. Bjorn, thanks for the input. What I don't understand is why the Tokina 12-24 wd say that it can't be used with a full frame camera and yet the Nikon doesn't say that? This is what has me confused? As you saying that the image that comes out of the lens won't fill up a full frame CCD, is this the easy tech explanation? Then how could they fill up a whole frame of 35mm film?

    JohnG, these are just rumours, of course, but eventually all cameras will go FF, I think, just because of the demand for it. I'm still in love with my S3Pro so I'm not shifting from that lineup. I still can't see any other camera having the lack of noise at high ISO's AND having such a wide, sweet dynamic range. As you can see from my pics, I love shooting birds, esp swans, and having no blown highlights makes me extremely happy when reviewing my work at the end of a long day of shooting.
  5. Baywing


    Feb 22, 2005
    CT USA
    If I understand your question, the Nikkor 12-24 is a DX lens, which by definition, is for use on Nikon Digital SLRs. Since there currently isn't a FF DSLR from Nikon, it's not an issue. In techie terms, the image circle generated by a DX lens covers the DX format, and is not large enough to cover FF. It's a smaller version of the large format issues, when you buy lenses, you have to know what the maximum image circle is to know if it will cover the film of the size you are shooting. Example, a Nikkor 210mm has an image circle of about 319mm, more than enough to cover the diagonal measure of a 5x7 sheet of film (220mm) but not quite enough to cover the diagonal measure of an 8x10 sheet of film (325mm). Thus, if you try to use that lens on an 8x10 or 11x14 camera, the corners won't get any (or anywhere near enough) light.
    As for the Tokina, not sure, but I thought it was a DX lens also.
  6. Well ya learn something new everyday!!! Thanks Baywing for this explanation. I now understand the whole thing.... now it makes sense to me.
  7. Well actually kiddies to contradict slightly.. I tried my 12-24mm lens on my F5 one day. You definately canuse the thing on there.. You just cannot zooit all the way out to 12mm.
    On the film camera you have to have it set around 18mm -24mm and it will still cover the whole frame of 35mm film.
    If you look through the viewfinder you can see the dark circle produced when you zoom the lens out wider than 18mm....
  8. general


    Apr 30, 2005

    I have used the 12-24 on my F100s but you will get vignetting below about 18mm. But from 18-24mm, it works great.
  9. Baywing


    Feb 22, 2005
    CT USA
    I understand your point, but for a lens to be considered useful, it must perform throughout it's entire range. In the example I gave above, the 210mm Nikkor W will not cover 8x10, but I have used it on 8x10 without vignetting. How? Focus distance. As you focus closer, the lens moves farther from the film plane, effectively enlarging the image circle. While a 35mm lens doesn't move, per se, the elements inside do, with focus and zoom. If the image circle is close in size to a larger "format", there may be settings that can squeek it just large enough to get by. If you look inside the 12-24 as you zoom it, you will likely see the rear elements moving in and out. I'd bet that at 12-18 mm range, the elements are closest to the camera end, creating a smaller image circle.
    The above 2100mm lens is only listed as being usable to 5x7 format because it will not perform at all focus points and f stops on an 8x10.
  10. But referring back to the original question Sandi is referring to a 35mm camera and lens setup...

  11. Another solution is the Sigma 12-24....I have one and I understand that it can be used on a FF camera.. though I've never tried..

    Bohdan bob
  12. so this means that all DX lenses can't be used on FF cameras to their fullest ability??!!!! does this include my 17-55 Nikon and my 70-200VR Nikon?? This is all just a conspiracy to pull more $$ out of my pockets if I go FF!!??? *LOL* Now my brain hurts too!!
  13. nfoto

    nfoto Guest

    The 12-24DX Nikkor can indeed by used on a 24x36 (35) mm camera for the focal range from 17/18 to 24mm, but I do agree with Baywing that this isn't enough to make it generally useful for 35 mm systems. Being a telecentric design, this lens behaves very differently from ordinary lenses, since its largest image circle is at infinity focus and actually gets smaller when you focus closer. All DX Nikkors examined by me share this behaviour. Several of them can put put to restricted use on 35 mm cameras, but at least 2 cannot (18-70 DX never covers the 24x36 frame at any setting, the 10.5 DX fisheye behaves quite fishy and you get ugly vignetting from the built-in vestigal lens hood).

    You can be assured that any lens from Nikon designated "DX" is not to be used on larger formats such as a 24x36 ("FF") camera. As to the Tokina, I'm not familiar with it, but if the manufacturer says it can be used on a "FF" system, they should know, if nothing is said, it might be an "FF" lens but in all likelihood a lens with tremendous fall-off into the corners at its widest settings.
  14. Thought I would jump in on this. The 17-55mm is a DX lens, the 70-200VR is not. The 70-200VR will work on a FF camera.

    And yes, there is always something coming out to pull more $$$. This keep our economy humming along, and us wanting more-more-more.
  15. heiko


    May 15, 2005
    Hi Sandy,

    To boggle your mind just a little more, here an article on full-frame versus APS-C by Bob Atkins:


    APS-C is the smaller sensor size used currently by Nikon and some other DSLR manufacturers. Nikon lenses designed for these smaller sensors are recognized by the "DX". Other lens manufacturers use different terminology, but one way or another they will refer to as APS-C size sensors.

    As you can see from Bob Atkins' article, there is a hot debate on the merrits of FF versus APS-C, or vice versa. Bjorn has also been able to shed some light on this matter on his website - see his review of the D2X versus Canon here http://www.naturfotograf.com/D2X_rev06.html#top_page

    DX or APS-C dedicated lenses can be smaller (they don't need the larger image circle required for FF - think about the relatively tiny 10x zooms on P&S cameras, employing much smaller sensors), and should be more cost-effective to produce.

    Now, if only I would understand what I'm writing here :confused:  .

    P.S.: Seeing your pics postings, you know how to get the pictures right :smile: .
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