A Thread Specific To D300 Owners with Issues. SATURDAY UPDATED INFO

[VOLKeith]

When a kenko TC is used on a Sigma lens the camera shows the dead battery indication and will not AF. Does anyone know why this is? Is this a contact issue or a communication issue, or communication problem because of contact:smile:. This could point in the direction of the cause of the dead battery indication.

I have had the dead battery indication twice, but crappy AF performance in general since day one. AF-S is good, however it is slower to acquire initial focus than my D50, but AF-C has been very disappointing for me.

 

[phillip 200]

Hi Jim I have a sneaking feeling that it could be something like a resistor or diode a poor batch and no way of identifying the batch before they are fitted to which ever circuit board or camera a bit like the problem the D2h had.

Phil.

Ps I also think it's going to be a common component between both bodies D3/300.

 

[AviSys]

*** Somebody here said, "A software bug, for example, would do the same thing, in the same circumstances, every time . . ."

Not true; take it from a software guy. Especially in this case where we have a hugely complex combination of mechanics, analog circuitry, analog to digital conversion circuitry, and digital circuitry including one or more CPUs, all driven by software.

That's a horrible combination to deal with, technically. How do you test all the possible permutations of failure in that kind of environment? With the backbreaking expense and time of truly diligent field testing, that's how; and not many companies can, or will, afford to do that while their competition is driving ahead of them. This is a race against competition, at the users' expense, not some academic scientific endeavor.

 

[Jim Pearce]

I'm here because Jim and I have been in touch over these issues. I use my D300 largely with my 500 f4 AF-S, often with a TC-14E or TC-17E. I also have a 70-200 VR and a 300 2.8 VR. I don't have a grip, use Nikon batteries and my "backup" body is a D2X. My D300 exhibited the no autofocus symptom from time to time when new. I've now taken something in excess of 8,000 frames with it over four months. The following symptoms (with remedies listed) have shown up, with 3. through 6. appearing around 5000 actuations.

1. Autofucus won't work. Remedy: reseat lens/TC.
2. Balky shutter release. No remedy.
3. Battery shows dead. Remedy: switch camera off and on again.
4. Autofocus loses target, hunts and stops. Remedy: switch camera off and on again.
5. Autoexposure failure - underexposes. Extreme case, black frame. No remedy.
6. Shortened battery charge life (around 50%). No remedy.


1. and 3. are irritants, 4. a major irritant, 2., 5. and 6. unacceptable. After cleaning all contacts thoroughly with DeoxIT last week, everything works better than new. This is not unsurprising as my 500 f4 and TC-14E are ten years old and the contacts had never been cleaned. My dealer has been in touch with Nikon Canada and they are replacing the camera.

 

[Dr A]

Fyi

Eagerly following, replying to subscribe.

You don't have to reply to subscribe. YOu can just go to Thread Tools and "Subscribe to this Thread" is in the menu. Select taht and you're subscribed!

Moderators - you might want to consider removing my post since it doesn't pertain to the task at hand.

 

[JimN]

I don't have any MF lenses that I would use for any period of time at the moment unfortunately.

One of the things I learned im my early days of using high end electric musical instruments is that all controls should be rotated to thier extremes on a regular basis to insure proper working of the pots. if you never shoot in manual mode you are probably never adjusting the front CSM switch. I would suggest flipping it to all three positions at least 20 times as well as any mechanical switch or button on the camera. I have found that this insures proper electrical contact in any device. Jim

 

[azarby]

I have decided to post this at Jim's urging. I received my D300 on the day after Thanksgiving. I should have been suspicious from the moment I picked it up. While in the local shop, the salesman took a standard kit lens off the shelf and put it on my D300. I turned it on and I couldn't get it to focus at all. It would not even try to hunt for the focus point. We checked all the switches and everything was correct, single focus mode, single exposure. we turned the camera on and off with no effect. He removed the lens and put it back on. Guess what, it would now focus correctly.

I took the camera home and it worked ok for a couple of weeks. On one shooting session around the house, it got itself into a mode where it would not lock in on the subject, it just continued to hunt back and forth. If I manually focused, it would then lock and take the picture. I tried to auto focus again using continuous focus and low speed burst, the same thing happened again. This happened about 3 or 4 more times. I turned the camera off and back on and it now worked correctly. I can't remember which lens this was with, but it was either the 24-120 VR or the 70-200 VR. Shortly after Christmas I bought the MB-d10. After one of my shooting sessions, I put the battery (Enel3e) on the charger. The next evening, I put the freshly charged battery into the grip and turned the camera on. The camera would not recognize the freshly charged battery in the grip. I turned the camera off and on a couple of times, but that didn't help. I finally removed the battery from the grip, removed the grip and reinstalled everything. The camera now recognized the battery and showed both batteries at 100%.

Since then the failure to lock focus has re-occurred at least three times. Once with the 70-200 and TC17eII combination, Once with the 70-200 by itself and one other time, but not sure if it was the 70-200 or the 24-70. As of now, the camera is sitting in the shop at El Segundo. It's been over two weeks and no status except for "it's in the shop". I called Nikkon service today and they said they would have someone contact me.

Just as a side note. Since I had to send the camera for repair, I decided to send my 24-70 at the same time for a severe front focus issue. I know I could adjust it out, but it took between a +17 to +19 on the fine focus adjust to get it near the center focus. Even then the lense was very soft, softer then the 24-120 which I sold.

For now, I guess it's sit back and wait for Nikon to get back to me.

Bob

 

[JPAC]

So the problems arise with an AF-S telephoto lens, which draws a higher current than normal, which when combined with the higher voltage EN4A battery locks up the AF. If one of the contacts between the camera and lens is slightly high resistance, due to oxidation or grease/dirt, which is responsible for releasing/reversing the magnetic flux in the motor, would stop the lens from focusing? Adding a teleconverter would increase the chance of high resistance and operation of the circuitry.

If the lens stops focusing when the camera doesn't expect it to, the software would crash until the camera was switched off and on again, so releasing the magnetic flux, enabling the lens to focus again.

Or not.

 

[xrdbear]

*** Somebody here said, "A software bug, for example, would do the same thing, in the same circumstances, every time . . ."

Not true; take it from a software guy. Especially in this case where we have a hugely complex combination of mechanics, analog circuitry, analog to digital conversion circuitry, and digital circuitry including one or more CPUs, all driven by software.

Partly true I think. The 'hugely complex combination' of hardware, if working correctly, should make the operation of the software reproduceable. The number of external combinations aren't great and easily described. Nikon should be able to reproduce the problem if software is the answer and others using the same accessories and with the same settings on the camera should get exactly the same problems. I continue to believe a hardware problem is going to be the outcome. I just hope for Jim's sake it's soon.

That's a horrible combination to deal with, technically. How do you test all the possible permutations of failure in that kind of environment? With the backbreaking expense and time of truly diligent field testing, that's how; and not many companies can, or will, afford to do that while their competition is driving ahead of them. This is a race against competition, at the users' expense, not some academic scientific endeavor.

Presumably this is why Nikon has been engaged in such extensive user testing programmes before launch. I really feel this would have been found long ago if it were a system design problem, it's so fundamental.

 

[mikefitz6]

Jim,

I have been following this thread too. Maybe some of what I have experienced will help. I have had my D300 show the low battery indicator also. The camera then freezes up. Turning it off and on will sometimes work. I may then get one shot before it freezes up again, or this past weekend 857 shots without a problem. It did lock up about 4 times right at the beginning of the meet and then no problems for the rest of the day. On one day it was freezing up with a low battery multiples time throughout the shoot. I would guess it happened 30-40 times that day. It has happened after I cleaned all the contacts.

Nikon suggested I send it in which I will do when my obligations slow down. I really need to have two cameras at some point.

Here is where I seem to notice the problem. I cannot be sure of any of these facts yet. It seems to occur more in cold weather, about freezing, than it does in warmer weather. So far it has only occured with my 300 f2.8. Last weekend I turned the VR off and got the 857 shots without a hitch. I have no clue if the VR off really made a difference. It has occured both with and without the grip. Batteries are always fully charged and it has happened with 8 new AA batteries in the grip. It has only occured with the 300 f2.8 both with and without the 1.4TC. I have used the 70-200 without problems with the VR on. I have not used my other non-VR lenses much at all since I got the D300, but so far no problems with those. My D200 had the same problem but with the 70-200VR. Exact same symptoms with low battery/camera lockup gradually getting worse until I sent in the D200 and it was deemed non-repairable. The warranty got me the D300 as a replacement.

Please don't draw any conclusions from what I have reported. I do not know the significance of anything I said other than it is real frustrating when the camera locks up multiple times over an hour or two. The next meet, I may not have any problems.

Just throwing something out here. This is probably way off base. If there is a battery or lense to body connection that is too loose, it seems that cold might make it worse as metal contracts or that the increased power usage of a VR lens in conjunction with poor connections due to cold could cause the problems?

Thanks for any input.

 

[jfenton]

Hello Mike

A) Thanks for the report

B) I've had it happen in Florida as well as the cold of New England...and, while shooting along side another Cafe member out in the cold, he has not experienced the issue.

Therefore, I'm not convinced it's ambient temperature related UNLESS there is some component which has an issue that is affected by temperatures in some bodies?

 

[davidwcramer]

Michael's experience is very similar to what I reported. I don't think temp is a major factor, as I've had it both occur and not occur in freezing temps, and have also had it occur when temps are in the 40s and 50s.

 

[jfenton]

I've Had Some Interesting Correspondence With Thom Hogan

And while he has some theories that are way above my head.....he is convinced that this will only be solved in Japan when they can get a body with which they can easily repeat this while the camera is unassembled, so that they can get down to the route component.

He further commented that he stopped counting at over 500 components when he dissected a d300 which had drowned, and that there are 100 or more which could be causing this issue.

He seems pretty convinced based on the data I've provided him that it is an electrical issue internal to the bodies.

Without going into some other peripheral discussions / comments, this is the context:


" A couple of things are becoming clear from your reports. First, it’s an internal power issue (which can also be resistance-related), and second, it’s a subset of the camera that is experiencing it (the INFO page is one indicator of this: the main CPU is fine and unaffected).

Like I said, I can’t rule out resistance in the lines that go from the lens’ PC board to the contacts. This has caused problems before with AF shutting down. And it seems to vary with lens. The scenario I envision is that the increased resistance and the marginal battery level (remember, you need the increased voltage to get 8 fps) are interacting to put the chip that’s running that in the camera into an indefinite state. Back in 1980 I got my first real lesson in digital electronics design from one of the grandfather’s of it: “all digital designs are inherently analog if you measure them closely enough.” What happens is that the timing edge of an impulse (where something goes from a 0 to 1 state or vice versa) becomes long enough or occurs at just the wrong time so that the state is in between the two or never gets to the changed state while being looked at by other circuitry. You’ll note that we haven’t seen the same problem with the D3 (that I know of). The D3 uses a different, faster processor and clock signal on the focus circuitry.

The problem with fixing such problems is that you first have be able to measure them. That means that you need a repeatable case, and you need to be able to trigger that repeatable case with the camera partially disassembled so that you can get to test points.

There are other possibilities that can’t be ruled out (the old differential diagnosis). Resistor packs at the wrong value, capacitors that aren’t discharging at the right rate, and a host of other possible issues come to mind. I stopped counting at 500 parts when I disassembled the D300. But I can point to at least a 100 that could be involved in whatever’s going on. "

 

[Baywing]

Jim,
I'm not sure if you ever said or if anyone ever asked, do you shoot in 14 bit?

 

[jfenton]

12 Bit Only

Never tried 14 bit (can't exactly get high enough PFPS in the D300 14bit for moving subjects), live view or AF fine tuning (just in case you were wondering).

 

[puddleduck]

I have experienced this issue with a D200 and a 70-200 VR with TC out in Alaska in July 2006.

And also with a Fuji S5 Pro with a 300mm VR at Duxford Airshow in September 2007.

Same symptoms - battery indicator flashes, failure to focus, sometimes can't even power the camera OFF with the on / off switch.

It seems to be related with big VR lens - although also observed with a 105mm VR, immediately after my D200 came back from "repair" from Nikon UK back after the Alaska trip in 2006.

 

[Retief]

I have experienced this issue with a D200 and a 70-200 VR with TC out in Alaska in July 2006.

And also with a Fuji S5 Pro with a 300mm VR at Duxford Airshow in September 2007.

Same symptoms - battery indicator flashes, failure to focus, sometimes can't even power the camera OFF with the on / off switch.

It seems to be related with big VR lens - although also observed with a 105mm VR, immediately after my D200 came back from "repair" from Nikon UK back after the Alaska trip in 2006.

Not VR I'm afraid, I've seen it with my old 400 AFS-1 as well as my 200-400 VR. Even think I saw it, can't remember as it would have been prior to getting my D300's, with the 18-200VR, and I know Jim has reported it, as have others, with short lenses both VR and not. Interesting, though, while I have seen it with my D200's, yours is the first I had heard of one of the Fuji's.

 

[puddleduck]

The EXIF data on that particular image stated my aperture was f0.

Lisa:

I saw this exact same problem on my Alaska shoot that I mentioned just up in post #98:

https://www.nikoncafe.com/vforums/showpost.php?p=1769743&postcount=98

I saw intermittent but random DBS / AF failures during this shoot.

Subscribe to see EXIF info for this image (if available)

Nikons "solution" was to suggest "customer's battery may need replacing" which was totally bogus. They never managed to fix it, or even admit the problem. I still keep these NEFs just to prove to myself I wasn't going mad

 

[tomb18]

If this is indeed a hardware issue that sets the camera in some state as suggested by Thom, then removing the batteries completely should fix the problem until the next occurance. Is this the case? If it a combination of this and current issues with a long lens, then when the problem occurs, if you remove the batteries and put on another smaller lens, then all should be fine when the battery is re-inserted.
At least then you are doing a cold boot, resetting any indefinite state in the software, and reducing the current draw resulting in less likelyhood that it will occur again right away. Anyone try this?

Here's another interesting idea! Anyone try to take a picture with no lens? Does it give in the exif 0.0mm f/0.0 as above???? If so, then perhaps it believes that there is no longer a lens attached!

 

[PJohnP]

I'm also wondering if there's some odd conjunction of the battery "smart charge" system, the camera bodies, and AFS/VR power draws. As most folks know, the older battery design common to the D70 and D100 was changed for the D200, supposedly with the idea that it was a more "intelligent" system with respect to preventing the user from running with too low a voltage, and possibly damaging the camera electronics at low voltages.

Where we used to run the D100 batteries to just about dead-dry conditions, the D200 and D300 have failsafes for stopping operation at some predetermined voltage and/or net available current draw. There's something in the camera software and the battery circuits that tells the system to stop operating on the D200 and D300 models, while displaying that blinking battery symbol in the viewfinder and the upper LCD.

None of my failures have happened with the older screwdriver AF lenses (and absolutely none with AI/AIS lenses, I might add). But the driver is within the camera body for those older AF lenses, which may have a very different set of requirements (one would think, given the speed of the fast motor system for AFS that it would draw more current).

That we've seen issues where the data display and the upper LCD are at variance with the battery condition was something that I discussed back in Post 78, but I didn't associate a failure mechanism with the battery condition circuits within the batteries.

I wonder if the D300 coupled with an AFS or an AFS/VR lens has too large a current draw under some conditions which then "trips" the system in a previously unseen failure mechanism ? The battery wasn't changed between the D200 and D300, but the power draws for such items as the larger LCD (just as one example) are obviously higher. It may be that the software bombs on this point, and instead of getting a failure message for the battery consistently, the focus system goes bonkers, but in other cases, the draw is sufficient to trigger the battery failure warning.

I don't recall anyone discussing having this failure with a non-AFS lens, and it's been discussed for lenses with both VR and AFS, but insofar as I'm aware, no VR lens is non-AFS.



Hmmm.... That brings up some cogent questions for the group here at the Café.

• Has anyone seen the focus failure with a non-AFS lens / older AF "screwdriver" lens ?

• Has anyone seen a false "battery dead" failure with an AI-AIS lens ?

• Lastly, does anyone know the voltage and current draw cases for the older screwdriver mechanism in the body of the camera and the new AFS internal motors ?

An excellent test of this issue(s) would also be to hook up a D300 to an EH-5A AC Adapter and see if any failures occur. That might assist in diagnosing the issues further.



It sure would be nice if we could link Nikon directly into these discussions...


John P.